[dana_marie]: hi everybody and welcome back to the empowered to advocate podcast this is part three of our series on student voice in the last episode go back and catch it if you haven't done so yet we talked about fourteen to twenty two year olds mostly but starting at age fourteen how to include students in the iep process and in their special education programming today we're actually going to work backwards and we're going to talk a little bit about those middle school friends which i talked a lot during the last episode because i primarily work with those fourteen to twenty two year old students but in this episode you'll get to hear a lot from michele who has worked with middle school students for over twenty years actually

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: at this point i believe you can correct me if I'm wrong

[michelle_she_her]: yeah pretty much

[dana_marie]: in one capacity or another yeah so she is for sure expert here on

those middle grades and we're going to talk about how when you do get a little bit younger how we still include those students in their iep meetings in the iep process and in their programming so with that i think i guess my first question is what : is the difference what are some differences between including students when there may be in grades fifth through eight versus when they are in high school and beyond

[michelle_she_her]: so i think the really big differences is that including students in their process or getting their input or their vision is not necessarily something that teams think of this includes the educators on the team this includes parents and care givers um it's just you know we're going to go in where the parents where the teachers we know best is not saying this in any sort of judging way if you don't you don't know what you don't know right um i do find that once educators and care givers like really experience the power of having the child more involved in their process it's a total mindset uh shift and it's like oh this is such a valuable part of this process and middle schools a very fun time for human beings right and yeah it's like i like to think of middle school kind of and like these two chunks so we have seventh and eighth grade where you might actually have some students who are fourteen or turning fourteen in the life of their iep so thirteen year old at the date of their meeting they still legally need to have a transition ion plan this does not necessarily mean that they if they're thirteen have to be invited to their meeting we are still creating a transition plan which means they need to be involved in the development of that transition plan so in seventh and eighth grade there's a little bit more awareness of this piece but sometimes fortunately i can feel like a oh no i forgot about the transition

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: plan oh no i didn't realize that they were going to be fourteen and this needed it's like an afterthought so i find it super valuable to really start this process of including students voices as young as kindergarten i'm at a key to eight school so because then it's just common place it's not an afterthought it's you know it's just happening right and for those thirteen and fourteen year olds in middle school and even twelve year old already starting to ask caregivers and the students themselves if they want to come to their meetings so i typically check in with the parents or care givers first see where they're at because : some students don't realize that they might know that they get some extra help from so and so or they go to speech therapy but they don't may not actually know that there's even a legal document called an iep that is helping to provide those services for them so i like to make sure that there's a conversation with the care givers about how they would like to have a conversation with their child about their disabilities um because that you do want to approach this with caution right because there is a lot of stigma around having a disability because unfortunately we live in an ablest world where folks with disabilities are oftentimes stigmatized so we want to make sure that we're approaching this from a frame of know you depending developmentally how old the child is you have some challenge of these really wonderful strength you also have some ways that you learn a little bit differently than what traditional school would expect us to be learning in and this is document to just help you as a unique learner learn in the school with everybody else who also all have unique learning needs because we all have unique learning needs whether we have a determined disability or not right so

[dana_marie]: ah

[michelle_she_her]: um having conversations with your child if you're care giver and i also think from the educator side making sure that part of your curriculum and your content you're always weaving in different learning styles different disabilities that humans with disabilities have always existed and exist and are all around us and that's i'm not saying like going and be like Dana marie has a learning disability we need this is how she learns right like we're not like targeting and like outing kids

[dana_marie]: right

[michelle_she_her]: when their disabilities and our discussions but reading books about

students with disabilities reading having converse having all kids take learning style survey to see what they feel is their preferred learning style well i think that information is really important for all students not just kids with disabilities so getting students involved as young

as possible into learning more about how they learn

[dana_marie]: you know what's interesting i was just thinking of something while you were talking

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: i actually feel like that those middle school years are kind of lost in this way

because we're going to more about this in the next episode but with younger kids i actually feel like we do this more like you said we read stories during whole class readings we have books with different children with different abilities in them we use social stories a lot more in those younger grades especially or young kids with communication challenges i feel when students when kids are in those like k through three we actually talk a little bit more about ability and about differences more than we do i think when we get to middle school and so it's almost like we focus on opening up those conversations when kids are younger and then for whatever reason and this is sort of a blanket statement but whatever reason it feels like it falls off in those middle grade years and then like said we kind of pick it up again when kids get to high school were like oh no we got to include the we got to invite them their fourteen it's really interesting to think of it that way you know yeah and i think it's interesting to that a lot of the stories that we also read tend to be about humans or adolescence um with really significant

Disabilities and are very visible disabilities and that tends to be who were like almost like exceptional ism of disabilities um and there is not

necessarily a lot of conversation about students with dyslexia or dyscalculia

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: it's more

[dana_marie]: so it's hidden those hidden disabilities

[michelle_she_her]: yeah yeah

[dana_marie]: yeah that we don't

[michelle_she_her]: so um and those kinds of disabilities that times also don't really impact a student until in a really noticeable way until middle school when a lot there is you know a lot more executive functioning challenges and demands were now reading to learn not learning to read so where these disabilities might like determinations or diagnosis might be really new for the student and for the families as well to be navigating and learning them so middle

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: school such a fun time

[dana_marie]: so what can we what can we do whether you're a parent or care giver or your teacher or somebody on a school team maybe you're listening your SLP or OTt or somebody who works with that pamlatin of kitto fifth through eighth grade how can we insure in those grades and at those ages before that age fourteen Kicks in how can we insure that they are included in the process in their meeting in their programming how can we make sure that we're making space for them at that iep table

[michelle_she_her]: so i think the first thing is having at least one team member usually it's

a liaison it might be the special teacher might be the slp working in collaboration with the care giver on how to approach this with the child and having on going conversations lots of one on one conversations during sessions i think are important um again like quick surveys or even like self assessment after a project or after writing an essay or after turning in a math work sheet or something how did you

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: feel about this what was hard what do you think would have been more supportive for you because this is the other thing we talk a lot about like what the student interest is and what the vision like what their goal is um we want to do that with middle school

ers as well i mean most of them say that they want to be youtube stars or something you know in hollywood or on a sports team and that's super develop mentally normal but that's still what they want to do so

[dana_marie]: absolutely

[michelle_she_her]: still tuning into well what kind of skills does a you tube need to have what where is your strength oh you're really good at bl conversation but maybe you feel a little weird presenting in front in a camera well you're gonna be on camera what are some skills that we can learn to better to be a improved presenter right so we can turn any goal or vision that a student haves for themselves into applicable skills that they're learning in school and into the curriculum I feel

[dana_marie]: yeah sure and we have talked now in both the last episode

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: and in this episode about surveys questionAirs, interest and inventory sort of preparing students ahead of im um so i just want to give some examples of some actual questions you can ask to maybe start this conversation you don't necessarily have to ask all of these questions but some questions that as either a caregiver or a parent or as a teacher or somebody on a school team you can start the conversation whether it's in writing in a question there or just in a conversation with the student preparing for the meeting so what

is your vision for after you graduate from high school do you want to go to college at this point do you want to go straight to work join the military trade school something else transportation is something we talk about how do you currently get around does your parent usually drive you do you take the bus to and from school as they get older do you take public transportation do you walk places by yourself or with a group of friends what do you in vision for transportation in the future time flies by while you want to a license when you want to start studying to get your permit or license in the next couple of years where do you see yourself living as a young adult in a college dormitory in an apartment alone with friends with a roommate with family members do you see yourself living locally do you want to stay here or would you like to explore another part of the country or somewhere else in the world what kind of work do you see yourself doing in the future middle school is not too early like michele said

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: you might get answers like you tube star an nba player and they might not be totally realistic for that student but they're also developmentally very appropriate missions for the future but what kind of work do you see yourself doing in the future if you're not sure what are some of the activities that you to do now that might let us know a little bit about what interests you right so maybe you're saying that you want to play in the nba because you really just love basketball you love being around your friends and being on a team are there other things in that industry that you can do would you want to be a sports caster would you want to coach a team would you want to be an athletic trainer so just really starting those convers aten's early even if the answer is youtube star would you want to have your own podcast one day would you want to be a writer or work in journalism or something like that to just get those those skills to the forefront and some of those interests the things that that student really would like would like to do and michele i already know what you're going to say but just as a reminder to folks what when it's too early to start having those conversations

[michelle_she_her]: never too early

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: never too early and i think it's

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: also something to have a conversation with students about two is where do you see your strength where what is really challenging for you what makes it challenging for you what things are : helpful for you and this is particularly important in middle school because this is when we also start to see where the SLP or OT especially students are like why do i have to keep being pulled i don't want to miss whatever you know all the other kids are doing x y and z at this time why doi have to go see this person once a week why i don't like going to academic support i don't find that it's helpful or you know whatever and then

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: giving them the space to learn how to be advocates for themselves and express what is helpful for them and what's not helpful for them because then there's going to be honestly more buying for the things that lie we might actually know is going to be helpful for them they just might not realize it now but if something if they are not if they were feeling a certain kind of way about a service or an accommodation that they are receiving it's not working for them then it's not going to be helpful for anybody during the day and one of the things that comes up sometimes is with state testing accommodations and you know iep teams we really want to make sure that we're giving students an equal chance to be successful on these high stake tests so sometimes teams can get a oh the word i'm looking for here a little over zealous with the accommodations for state testing and this is something this is this is it's all going to tie together stay with me her folks it'll be cast time in massachusetts and a student will be like why are you pulling me out of class for this test i don't want to go with you who are you right it might be sometimes i'm pulled to administer testing and somebody's like who are you like why i'm not going with you into the small group to do my like

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: i want to stay with the class and then it turns out that like they

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: haven't necessarily been being pulled all year for testing and it's not a necessary accommodation for them they don't want it they don't think it's helpful for them right and i'm going to preface this that any accommodation that a student is received ing for state testing needs to be something that they have been receiving throughout the year it can't be something that's just for the state test and this is one of the reasons for it but this is for another episode

[dana_marie]: right yeah

[michelle_she_her]: but a student being able like having a conversation with a middle school student is it helpful for you to go into a different room it might be a little bit more quiet or less distractions in the room is it actually more distracting for you

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: to go into your english class get settled and then have somebody say we're going to take the test in my room sometimes that's more disruptive for students focus and frame of mind so having that conversation with them about what is more helpful is going to be really useful to make sure we're not like throwing all the accommodations out there it's just not necessary and can actually be really harmful and not helpful

[dana_marie]: for folks looking whether you are a parent or care giver or a part of a school team for folks looking to start including middle school students in a way that's not super overwhelming and in a way

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: that feels like starting pretty easy let's have this be the way share the accommodations in their iep with them sit down if you are a liaison special education teacher general education teacher parent and you can sit with your child with : your student and go

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: through that list of accommodations something simple they could do is high light the one that you feel like are helpful for for you leave the one's blank that you feel like aren't and then let's maybe have a conversation about those ones or check off the ones that you think are helpful is there anything here that we missed sometimes we wait and we ask students that question during the iep meeting they've not had time to really think about it those are questions that might be difficult to answer obviously on the spot so beforehand or

after if you need to that's a real good entry point into a conversation about what works for you and what doesn't work for you take that list of accommodations not just testing accommodations but accommodations in general that are part

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: of the iep and go through that list a middle school student has enough self awareness to be able to give you a little bit of insight into some of those things that are helpful are not helpful to them and that feels like a not super overwhelming entry into including them in that conversation you don't have to give them the entire iep up front if they're in fifth or sixth grade and say read this get back to usbut giving them that list of accommodation sitting with them going through it together might be a good conversation starter to see how they can contribute the conversation

[michelle_she_her]: absolutely no i think that's a really good place to start and if you are an educator i would say that before whipping out the iep especially in fifth sixth grade just having a conversation with the care giver before and like saying i'm going to start talking i want to have a conversation have you had a conversation with your child about their disability about having an iep you know and some parents well say i prefer to do this is a you know

[dana_marie]: yeah

[michelle_she_her]: and so again pulling in that whole iep teams are teams it's a team collaborative process right it's the edge ters it's the therapist it's the care givers and it's the students and when everybody can work and communicate together that's when the magic can happen right

[dana_marie]: m it can i'm so glad that we pulled this middle school group into their own episode

[michelle_she_her]: me

[dana_marie]: because

[michelle_she_her]: too

[dana_marie]: i do feel like sometimes we forget about them

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: i do i feel like sometimes we talk about our

[michelle_she_her]: yeah yeah

[dana_marie]: fourteen plus kids we talk about our little guys and kiddos and we just sometimes forget our middle school

[michelle_she_her]: I do

[dana_marie]: so i'm really happy that we we separated them out i am so excited for the next episode

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: i love talking about our little kiddos

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: and our younger friends and how they can a part of this process as well i'm super super looking forward to well we'll keep it short still

[michelle_she_her]: oh

[dana_marie]: but i think the michell and i well could both go on and on and : about what to do with

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: our pre-k through fourth grade friends but we're really excited to share that with you in the next episode so thank you so much for listening to day wherever you are listening we love it when you plus a line either by emailing us at empowered to advocate at email dot com or by showing up on youtube on instagram on facebook really anywhere you find us we love to hear your once we would love to get your questions we still do have a couple of episodes left in this series we want to get your questions what questions do you have about including students young people in their iep process so drop us a line and join us next week for our episode on kindergarten through fourth graders in the process

[michelle_she_her]: yeah

[dana_marie]: thanks so much everyone