Michelle Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Empowered to Advocate podcast. This is Michelle and I'm joined here with Dana Marie and a very special guest for this episode. This is our first guest episode. So this makes it even more special. So big welcome to Karen Roy, who I have the pleasure of working with and she is a behavior extraordinary. And we're going to kind of dig into what that is, what that means, and why you might at some point care about getting to know a BCBA or a board certified behavior analyst for your child. So Karen, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.

Karyn Roy

Thank you for having me.

Michelle

So why don't you start with a little bit about who you are and just a very brief, like if you were going to give an elevator pitch about what a BCBA is and does for the people so they have an understanding.

Karyn Roy

So my background actually is in general education. I went to school convinced that I was going to be a first grade teacher for the rest of my life. I taught first grade for about three months in a private Catholic school. And I left. And I went to work in a residential school for children with autism, where I absolutely fell in love with the population. And I got my master's degree in severe special ed, started teaching, and did life skills and wanted to get my BCBA, which I actually didn't know was a thing until I started working at the residential school. So did my courses and here I am in the public school system. So yeah. So in short, a behavior analyst is somebody who assesses the reason behind a behavior,

is giving a child or an individual a can be an adult too. You know, the ABA therapy is based on the science of learning and behavior and how we can change behaviors of social significance, which is very different for everybody. You know, it's very individualized and what one family may think is socially significant and other family may not. But that's really essentially what it is do and we develop treatment plans based on the principles of ABA, applied behavior analysis, to change behavior good or bad. It doesn't have to be a bad behavior that we're changing. It can be something that we're trying to see more of in an individual as well

Michelle

Great. So what types of behaviors do you generally help students make progress with or reduce or increase? And how does that support them in accessing their education?

Karyn Roy

Well, so if you think about it as behavior as communication, that's my favorite phrase to say in every single meeting I think we've ever been in together. Typically a behavior is exhibited because that individual has learned that that is the fastest and easiest and most convenient way for them to get what they want. It's my job to teach them otherwise, you don't have to hit me to get the break, you can request a break. that I do focus on is while we're targeting something for decrease, you want to also target something for increase so that you're teaching them a new skill. So we're targeting decreasing hitting to escape work. We're also going to target increasing the request for a break and that doesn't have to be verbal if the child is non-speaking. It can be a picture. It can be sign language. It can be a voice output device. all of the above. I mean many ways to be universally understood for everybody in their environment.

Dana Marie

So yeah, so I think one thing that can be difficult for parents, caregivers, other team members to understand is that in your role in a school as the BCBA, you're not the one 100% of the time working on these behaviors and skills with the students that you work with or with the kids in the school. And so if you could kind of like explain to us in our audience what that looks like if you develop specialist, how does it get from you to actually the child whose behaviors were looking to decrease or increase? What are the steps who are the other people involved in that trajectory, that process?

Karyn Roy

I mean, it's really a team approach, right? So everything that we're targeting for change in any area of a child's treatment, it really involves the entire team and being consistent with kids and the entire team. So I am the one who designs the intervention, mostly because I know the science behind what I do. I have gone to school for it just as if a teacher designs an IEP because they went to school for it. So I design that intervention and it depends on the school district. So BCBA is within the public school realm or still actually kind of like a new thing in a lot of districts.

They don't really typically understand the role. They don't know what an RBT is, which is a registered behavior technician. If we're lucky enough, you know, the school that I work in is lucky enough to have BCPAs at least one in every school. They have at least one RBT in every school. And it's nice to see that because we have very clearly defined roles. So my role within the school district is a consult model.

I provide consultation to the teachers in the Paras as well, who support the students in the classroom every day. I have a lot of students on my caseload, so if I tried to see all of them for 30, 40 minutes a week or a day, it wouldn't be enough for me to, which just wouldn't be enough for them. They need it consistently throughout their whole day. So really, we are a team and it's my job to train

And then it's our job as a behavior team. We lovingly refer to ourselves as the behavior squad in our school, but it is our job to then train the teachers, the administration, the team chairs, the support personnel, even the custodians sometimes on how to manage behaviors with this particular student or with that particular student, because they're going to be the ones

There is a very detailed plan written up. So if the student does this, this is how you're going to respond. Here's how your tone of voice is going to be. Here's how much eye contact you're going to give a student or not. Here's how much attention you're going to give a student or not. When you're going to reinforce that student, when you're going to try to ignore as best as you can and just repeat the directive. So there's a very detailed plan written up.

distributed to the classroom staff. We review it. It's always also distributed to the parents, so the parents know what is going on at school and how we are managing behaviors at school. And a data sheet is made so that we can track data. I am a self-described data nerd and I am proud of it. The more data, the better.

Michelle

Yes, we love that.

Dana Marie

We do love that. Ha ha.

Karyn Roy

really helps me see if interventions are working or not and that data will drive future interventions that I decide to make. And anytime a plan is changed even in the slightest parents need to be notified they need to have a copy of the newest plan just so that they are on the same page because they are in many ways the most vital component of this team.

Michelle

Yes, we talk about that a lot. The team process being a very collaborative process and it should be truly a team where you have caregivers, outside service providers, the school team, all being on one team and that is the students team, right? And as students get older and as early as possible,

what their plans might look like to be supportive of them, to help them feel motivated to stay in class longer. Thinking, you know, some middle school kids that might have difficulty asking for a break, that might just get up and leave class, helping them understand why that might not be safe for them to do, while also teaching them how to request the break, right? How do you figure out what interventions could possibly work to help modify a behavior to be a safer way of communicating? What would be the first step for a team, including the parents, to kind of come together and figure out what intervention we're going to try first?

Karyn Roy

Well, so the interventions are really based on the research. Every intervention that is in place and approved through the ABA process, it's done in a laboratory first. It's managed and it's collected, you know, data is collected on it. And they really try to see if it is something that can be replicated over and over and over and over again. So ABA is a very research-based methodology, which is why it's kind of coming under a little bit skepticism at the moment, but you know, it is good in that we have all of this data and all of this research to say like, we know that this will change behavior. What I like about ABA, especially recently in the last year or so, is there's been a really big focus. ABA was all like, if we can observe it and measure it, we can change it. And now they're starting to realize that there is an internal component. We can't really see it. We can't really observe it. But you know, there are interventions that we can use. So the interventions that we use are really based on the research and what the research tells us. And we find these things in like the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis.

And we're constantly held to high ethical standards of making sure that we're current on the research so that we can provide the best interventions. So the first step in really determining any kind of intervention is doing the assessment, because the assessment will tell us why or primarily why we think this individual might be engaging this behavior

coming to like six, maybe seven reasons and functions now. But those haven't been like officially added. So that's why I kind of say it with a little hesitation. But the four main functions, if you just can remember, take a seat, sensory, escape, attention, and tangible. So sensory is something internal. It feels good to them. It makes them

attention, they want a peer attention. They love, you know, saying snarky comments in class because all the peers laugh at them. And they think that they're like funny and popular. They want adult attention. And attention can be positive or negative. It doesn't matter sometimes. Sometimes they look for both positive and negative attention, just to get attention. Escaping work, escaping a certain teacher, escaping a certain environment is another function. And then gaining access to something tangible that they want to do a preferred activity, a preferred person, a preferred environment. I am also very big on FBAs, so functional behavior assessments that we do in public schools.

It's really important for parents to know as part of the planning the intervention that we really should be planning interventions for all of those functions, because at any time it can be maintained by any one of those. And the assessment only shows us, well, out of the two or three hours that I observed them, it was mostly this. But at times it was also this, and at times it was also this. So it's really important to remember that it can be any function at any given time.

those functions will really help the student. So that's really the first step in planning the intervention is really doing the assessment and figuring out primarily what is the reason behind this behavior. And then I always, always, always put some type of communication training in there, even if it is fully verbal child, a fully, in terms of cognitive ability, grade

There may not be any like significant learning gaps, but for whatever reason when they're upset or when they're angry about something. That's when we see this behavior coming out instead of the communication. So teaching students how to use their words or how to use some type of signal if they don't wanna be called out in front of their peers or necessarily different in front of their peers. Involving the student, like you said, as much as possible. I've done that with a lot of students. is very involved in designing his own interventions. And we give him options and where this is what we can do. We can do this or this. And that's when he chooses. So I'm giving him that power, giving families that power. This is, these are our options. This is how we can go about it. And I think that where I work is so diverse in their cultures and their own belief systems. changing a behavior can't just be science, it also has to take in to account the personal aspect of the family and the student and how to go about behaviors and how they are managed.

Thank you, first of all, for not shying away from the controversy around just it's important around ABA, around sort of behavior intervention in general, you know, we in conversations with parents and caregivers on our social media, on the podcast, we don't typically shy away from challenging difficult topics, especially if they're ones that are, you know, in the media, or like you said, right in the last year, particularly, we've seen lots of and sort of media attention around ABA and just behavior and intervention in general. So thank you for bringing that up. That is certainly a conversation for another podcast and we don't have enough time to get into it today. But it's important because you know we do work with parents and caregivers who don't prefer an ABA approach for folks working with their children, whether they are in the public school in a private school, like you said,

Dana Marie

in a residential school or outside the public school system. So it's important to just acknowledge and recognize that that is a conversation happening, not just in schools, but like you said, in universities and research facilities, so on and so forth. And there's still a lot to learn, obviously at the intersection of ABA and intervention and working with people anyway. So thank you for bringing that up. I have sort of an offshoot of a question

from that that I've been thinking about because I actually met you when you were a teacher in a substantially separate program in a life skills classroom many years ago. So I guess my question is how did being a teacher working with students with more significant disabilities, how does that inform or how did that inform your practice? I'm moving into a BCPA role which like you said is more consultative, you know, more working on teams and in a quote unquote but how did your work over the course of those five years teaching in that setting in those classrooms? How did that inform your work now?

Karyn Roy

I very frequently run into, well, you don't know what it's like in a classroom. And because of my experience, I can kind of be like, oh, contrary, I actually do. And I had many, many years experience in a classroom. And I had anywhere from two and a half to 10 students and anywhere from two to four powers.

You know, I like the fact that I can draw on the classroom experience that I had because I look at teachers and I said, I was you. I was you at one point. I do understand the general population, it's a little harder for me to relate to because I taught them for three months. But I also do try to empathize with their situation. You know, they have very large class sizes and they're not trained. education teachers coming out of college still don't have behavior training. They still don't have special education training. A lot of them are like, what is an IEP? What is a 504? What does this even mean? And I mean, sidebar, it's kind of my dream to design a college course here towards Gen Ed teachers to educate them on the modern day classroom and how they're going to have kids who flip desks, they're going to have kids with autism, they're going to have kids with social to have all of these kids in their class, it's not just going to be 18 to 20 kids who sit perfectly at desks and maybe a class clown. It's just not the modern day classroom anymore. So I think that drawing, like that knowledge, I think has helped me really kind of empathize with the teachers and also kind of gain their trust that I kind of know what I'm talking about because I do know, you know, I wasn't their shoes and I always tell them there's when it comes to behavior plans. And the most doable plan is not going to be, or sorry, the most effective plan is not going to be the most doable. And the most doable plan is not going to be the most effective. So we kind of have to find this balance with this ESAW. And I think that they respect that a lot. I also really try to educate myself on the classrooms that I go into, you know, the profile of the learners

Even the ones that I'm not assessing necessarily, the teacher and their teaching style, I kind of look around the room and I'm like, is there a schedule here somewhere? What kind of like discipline do they have going on? Is it a visual system? And I've gone in where like teachers have like the red, green, yellow check chart and I'm like, ooh, I don't like that necessarily.

not like publicly shame because I feel like that's a bad term but like almost like visually represent where they are in terms of their behavior and it's like under the guise of like we're teaching them to self-regulate But it's really just kind of like oh, but so it's I was in red. So they lost recess or whatever it is. It's just

Michelle She Her

more punitive, right? Like,

Karyn Roy

It's more punitive and like, but teachers aren't given alternatives. Even to this day, they're not given alternatives in their coursework. So, I mean, we can't really expect them to just kind of like, no, not to do that.

Michelle

I know, yeah.

Exactly.

Karyn Roy

So, yeah, I mean, did I answer your question? I don't even know. I went on a lot of tangent, so I apologize.

Dana Marie

Yes. Yes, I think that's a really good point too. So I will say one thing I've noticed in the last couple of years is I am seeing lots of folks at all different grade levels kind of move away from those sort of more punitive styles of behavior management that, you know, the, we all know the red, green, yellow, we all know the charts, who's in the danger zone, who is not in the danger zone, all that kind of stuff.

I do see lots of people moving away from that, lots of teachers moving away from that, which is obviously great for a lot of different reasons. But I guess what I wanna go back to, cause I love the idea of a college course for general education teachers. I guess the question is, what do you wish, what do you wish that general education teachers were taught in their, you know, undergraduate, right? you know, maybe 18 to 22 year olds, right, that are going into education, elementary, you know, high school, it doesn't really matter, but what do you wish that they were taught as a part of their programming, especially when it comes to working with children, with diverse needs, which obviously we all do here, but like you said, sometimes gen ed teachers aren't super expecting to work with really diverse populations of students on the need spectrum and

sometimes get surprised when like you said, they don't just have a class of 20 kids sitting at desks in rows, hands folded, ready to learn. So what are some of the things that you, from a BCBA perspective wish that those folks were taught in their undergraduate or graduate programs for that matter?

like the biggest thing is that behavior needs to be taught like a core subject. You know, behavior needs to be taught in the same way you teach math, teach science, teach English. It's no longer, you know, math is, is, you know, you learn the concept, you are repeatedly exposed to it, you are taught, repeat, repeat, model, taught repeat, like, and then it's behavior, we're going to punish, punish,

And by nobody's fault, I mean, I feel like behavior is still new to be addressed in the public schools. And I say that because I'm like, you know, when I was in school, it was still like kids with special needs were included. We didn't see them. We maybe saw them at lunch and recess, maybe. I actually remember one student in particular,

and we were all like, what do you mean he's 22? And still in our school. Like how does that happen? I thought you graduated at 18. That was when I went to school. I feel like I'm not that old. So like, sorry, go ahead.

Michelle

It's true. No, I was just gonna say, like, things have come a long way in terms of being more inclusive and being more thoughtful about not just, oh, the student has a disability, we're gonna usher them away to, you know, the little room down the hall, right? I think that you're right, we have come a long way, but also remembering that there is still so far to go.

In our teacher prep courses and programs better prepare teachers to have a wide variety of different learners and learning styles and communication needs and communication abilities and so on and behavior needs. How can we better prepare them which is what you're.

Karyn Roy

Yeah. I mean, I truly think that like, they need to realize that there are methods to teaching behavior that aren't just, let's give them consequences, let's punish them for this. And the biggest thing I still come across to this day is, well, this is great and all that he can just leave class whenever he wants. And as long as he goes to his designated spot, it's great. Where are the consequences? That's the most frequent question I get.

the consequences right now. We're focused on getting him to a space where he's regulated enough to be in your class. And if that means he has to miss 20 minutes of a 50 minute block. Yeah, okay, I'm sure he misses a lot of instruction. But he's also gaining behavioral skills that he didn't have before. And he's not walking out of the building and going home. missing the rest of his day. He's missing 20 minutes out of your class. You know, five minutes out of your class, whatever it is. He's learning these coping strategies and I feel like that social, emotional education is so important for teachers. It's because I mean the reality of it is like, if you go to school for severe special ed or even moderate special ed, you're given all of these tools. Like you're given all of these tools, you're well prepared for any type of behavior that may

but BCBAs are a thing now in public schools, so you'll probably have this person to support. And that's not always the case. And it's certainly not always the case in a general education setting, where a student might have a diagnosis, but just because they have diagnosis doesn't mean I necessarily need to be involved. But if I'm not involved, the teachers sometimes don't know what to do

They're not informed on communication disabilities that require speech services. They're not informed on any of this. So like having guest speakers come to the agenda in classroom or like having some type of panel discussion with a bunch of ancillary service providers and so that it can be like a Q and A conversation. Like if this comes up in my class, how would you support me or how would I get this supporter? How do I access these services?

I didn't even know these services existed. A lot of teachers are just like, what do you mean there's social workers in our school? That's cool. It's just eye-opening to this day that like there's so much education and concern around this topic, especially the social emotional population right now, because there are so many more kids being diagnosed with social emotional disorders because of COVID in the lockdown and all the trauma that resulted from that, it's kind of shocking to me that there's still not any type of education and there's still not any type of like attempt to put that education into people who are looking to become teachers. And so as a result of that lack of

thought that they would love to be teachers for the rest of their lives because they love kids and they want to help kids. They don't know how to help the modern day child because they weren't equipped with the tools in their education courses and I feel like that is where we're failing as a system right now.

Dana Marie

I think that's such a good point. I think of myself and you and I are around the same age. And I went through a graduate program for moderate disabilities and special needs. That's what I master's degree in is in. And as you're talking, I'm trying to think at the same time. I'm like, where was my instruction in that program around behavior? Like, where was my instruction on social emotional learning? Like, it was a decent program and it just wasn't there.

And I don't think, that was quite a long time ago, but I don't think much is actually shifted in teacher prep programs when it comes to preparing teachers specifically to work in special education and or with children with disabilities because your point is well taken that it isn't just teachers going into special education who require all of this training,

instruction who require an understanding of what ancillary service providers are going to work with so on and so forth. We don't super think of this holistically when we think about teacher prep in my opinion. I think that we train our BCBAs to train our special education teachers and train our speech pathologists to work with a certain population of student but don't think that everyone in the school including quite frankly administrators is actually responsible for educating all students

responsible for understanding what it takes in terms of instruction, in terms of teaching and learning.

Karyn Roy

And when I was doing BCBA courses, we actually did have a panel discussion. And we had general education teachers join us. And it was actually super eye-opening because it was a graduate program. These were graduate students in education. And they were like, no idea what IEP stands for.

individual something maybe. And they're like 504 sounds like a great number. What's it mean? You know, I was like, my lucky number. Yeah. Didn't you know that 504 is actually my lucky number? Yeah. Um, but but it was just like, like, literally, we

Michelle

Sorry. It sounds like a great number. It does have a nice- It has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

Dana Marie

It's, it does have a nice ring to it, but whew.

Karyn Roy

And it was like, what? These people are going to be working in schools. And even at that time, it wasn't as big of a deal as it is now. But it was still kind of like, it was still a thing. Like, Special Ed was very much a thing. And Inclusion was very much a thing, even at that time. But I mean, not to the extent that it is now. But I mean, I still have administrators being like, BCBs don't need to be in this program, but we need RBTs. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, honey, you can't have one without the weather.

Michelle

Who's gonna supervise the RBTs?

Karyn Roy

Right, and actually, people don't realize that BCBAs have their own ethical code that are separate from special ed law, and RBTs also have their own ethical code. RBTs can lose their certification if they are not overseen via BCBA.

Michelle

Oh, fascinating. Can you talk a little bit about how that partnership works? Like how...

Yeah, like literally how that partnership works because it really is a partnership. Yeah, yeah.

Karyn Roy

Oh, I wouldn't survive without mine. Um, no, like literally she's the best. Um, and she keeps me sane. I feel like we're not only really great colleagues, but we also like to vent to each other and we're like, we're really good friends

Michelle

Right.

Karyn Roy

implement the interventions of behavior analyst designs, train staff on those interventions, collect data. My RBT, when I have an assessment, she's like, well, do you need data collected? I can go and observe the student.. They can't perform any assessments. They can do preference assessments,

But yeah, she'll run preference assessments with students to find out what they like to do and what they like to earn for things so we can motivate them to do their work. She'll choose my rock and crisis. We're kind of like on the fly if there's multiple crises happening in one area of the building and then multiple in another area. I am very lucky enough to work in a school where we have a lot of support from administration

not be busy at the moment, but they're trained to help me out in a crisis.

You know, I trust that when I'm in a meeting and I can't manage a crisis that she will do a good job doing that. Or the other day, she did a training on discrete trials for new paraprofessionals who hadn't had that training yet. And typically I have a hard time letting go of control, but yeah, what? No, not me. But you know, she's very much somebody I trust to run that training because she knows what she's talking about

training together and she makes my data sheets for me but she also knows like I have to review them. Anything that she makes I have to give my stamp of approval before it goes to to anything.

Michelle

So a BCBA can do the assessments, the behavior plan design, and then the RBT is then able to take what is created by the BCBA, implement it, and then perhaps train other staff on how to implement. OK, gotcha. Models.

Karyn Roy

Yes, and model and model for this job by working directly with the students.

Dana Marie

I think one thing that you brought up that is really important and something that we talk about, not just as it relates to behavior, but just as it relates to special education in general, is there's so much trial and error, right? Like just because we design a positive behavior support plan or BIPA or just because we write an IAP doesn't mean that any of us or any of the classroom or school staff are perfect in geniuses and are going to design the best plan every time

100% of the time that's just not realistic. That's just not how working with any children or students goes. And so one thing that I like that you have been talking a little bit about is that sort of trial and error, right? Like we go in, we see, is this working? Is this not working? Why is this not working? Maybe it's the motivator. Maybe it's we're not understanding the antecedent to the behavior. Maybe we're not understanding something else that's going on in the environment, the classroom zone and so forth. And I just like that you

pointed that out not just in your conversation about how you work with your RVT but just in general right because one thing that we tell parents to do is like if you're at home right you're not in school you're not seeing what your child is doing for eight hours a day seven hours a day if you're at home and you're having questions about their IEP or something that's happening in terms of services or you are having questions about the behavior plan and if it's working like don't be afraid to reach out to the

leader at the school or an administrator or the BCBA if you have that relationship and say like is this working? Can I have some data to show whether this is working or not? Like we've been trying this particular plan for a couple of months. Can we have a conversation about it? Can I see it? Have any like you said have any changes been made? Can we talk about those changes? Like don't be afraid to be a part of that conversation because we're not none of us are perfect. None of

no-fail work every single time, we're working with human beings who have a lot of things.

Karyn Roy

Also, I mean, but that to that extent too, I always encourage parents to want to communicate with me on a regular basis. Michelle knows this very well, but I welcome them wanting to look at data weekly and graphs weekly. I welcome communication from that because the trial and error, I mean, it literally could be, I've messaged parents before on an app

Called them so it sounds really off this morning like You know Have you noticed anything at home and oh, yeah? Yeah? I mean they woke up at like 2 a.m. For the entire day So they've been away since doing oh There it is there it is folks there you have it they've been awake since 2 a.m. I'm sure I would be the same way if I were We can see I am or you know There's huge medication shortages right now

So it's like, oh, we weren't able to get their prescription filled on time. So they didn't have their meds this morning. Oh, okay. Really important information for us to have.

parent communication as much as possible with really any ancillary service provider. But particularly when it comes to behaviors because when a BCBA is getting involved for a child in a school setting, it's usually because the behavior has escalated to a point where the behavior is in some ways dangerous to either themselves or to another person.

especially if they're not seeing the same behavior at home. And so just like sometimes providing them with the graphs or the data and really sitting down with them and explaining this is what we're seeing and here's what we define it as because aggression for one student is going to look different than aggression for another student. Tantrums for one is going to look different than another. Having that conversation and kind of

really getting them to understand where we're coming from in terms of this is where we're at right now. It's not going to be forever, you know, and hopefully it's not going to be forever. These are the skills right now we need to target so that they remain safe, so that other people remain safe, so that hopefully you continue to not see this in your home environment. And also having that conversation about how home and school are very, very different environments and they need to be out of necessity. Your home is not like your office, you know.

You need it to be different and that's okay sometimes and sometimes it needs to just be structured and a little differently and you know consistency throughout the entire team is vital to the success of any student for any service ever on the face of the planet.

So, you know, and so like that communication with the families, if that's lacking, and the student has been up since two o'clock in the morning, and all of a sudden they're having this really awful morning and they're just tantruming nonstop and you're like, oh my God, what am I doing? Like, am I triggering the student like, let's try turning off the lights. Let's try doing this. Let's try doing it like, no, because you don't know. Like, you just don't know, like because you're not communicating with the family, they could have just easily told you they've been up since two o'clock in the morning. They're probably really tired.

Okay, well in that situation, hey, do you want to rest? Yes or no? Like, do you want to break? Yes or no? Like, power nap for 20 minutes, kid. Sometimes that 20 minute power nap is all you need.

Michelle

So what would you say there are the top three to five things that you would have recommended to parents, caregivers, if their child is struggling at school with some challenging behaviors, maybe some things maybe it's new, maybe it's something that's been going on for a while, but now they're a little bit older, so it makes it more challenging as they get older and bigger.

for them to better advocate for their children at school.

Karyn Roy

There's so many things.

Michelle

Top three to five.

Karyn Roy

I mean communication with the school. I want to know exactly when they're doing it, how they're doing it, what they're doing, why they're doing, is it with one teacher, is it with one particular class, is it

on a certain day of the week. You know, I wanna know, so in order for us to know that, like, again, teachers really kinda need to be informed about data collection and how to go about documenting all of these things when a BCBA really isn't involved.

Do you notice if it's a particular topic that they're trying to avoid? Is it a particular teacher that they're trying to avoid? Do they, is it a student that they're trying to avoid? Is there a peer conflict somewhere? So that's definitely, I think, the communication as to like when it's happening, how often it's happening really needs to be there between the parent and the school team to try to curb the behavior

if they don't see the behavior but they're informed by the school that the behavior is happening. Are they talking to the child when they get home from school? Are they trying to process with the child? What happened? Like, can you tell me like, you're not in trouble, I need to know what happened? Like, I need to know why we're trying to help you. So I think that just kind of knowing what's been attempted to occur or really kind of

recognizing on the school end when they should seek a behavior analyst to get involved, but also trying to go through other means first. So like, before people come to me in my district, they have to go through the social workers because social workers on a particular set of skills that they can process with students and make recommendations to the team to try to implement with students to try to teach regulation and, you know, self management

those professionals have been involved. Again, it really all stems back to communication. Like, I feel like that is like literally the only thing that I would recommend for families to do is to have this like super open communication and honest communication. The school is not going to judge you on your parenting styles or your caregiving styles. They're not because

Sometimes families are just at a loss. And I feel like when families are at a loss and then they're being told that they're just giving in, the trust between the school district and the family just isn't there. So I really feel like open, honest communication is probably the only thing I would recommend because every other thing that I said really is under this umbrella of communication.

Dana Marie

totally. That's perfect. And honestly, I think that, you know, one thing we hear from parents and caregivers a lot is that either they're nervous, like you said, to reach out to the school or to a school team member for any number of different reasons. And or they're in a position where they're just like, I don't know anything, I'm deferring to the school staff that is trained in this that has education in this so on and so forth. And in both of those scenarios, what we tell parents is, no, but actually, you are the

expert. This is your child. This child is living with you in your home. Parents and caregivers and family members, you are a vital part of this conversation. You're a vital part of the team and you really are truly an expert. No, you might not be trained in the same analysis that a BCBA as you might not be trained in the same, you know, teaching and learning and curriculum and so on and so forth. The teacher is, but that does not mean that you don't have something to contribute to the conversation. That doesn't mean that you are not an incredibly important

part of communicating and being a part of that team. So thank you for saying that, and I totally agree with you that, not just when it comes to behavior, but many facets, most facets of school, I think that that's probably the best advice that we could give to parents and caregivers, is don't be afraid to communicate with us, don't be afraid to talk to us, be a part of the team, et cetera.

Karyn Roy

It's actually kind of sad to see like how nervous people do get to communicate. Almost like they're going to be like, I'm actually, you know, I'm a parent of three small children that are in daycare. And like, even their daycare teachers sometimes like, they're the toddler teacher who, who had my daughter and now has my, my twin boys, they, um, she comes up to me and she's like, Oh, Karen, like, I have to talk to you about something.

And I was like, oh, come on, you know me by now, just give it to me straight. Like, I, like what they do now, like, and she's like, how do I know? I was like, just give it to me, just spin it up. Come on, like, let's go. But like, it's so interesting to me because I have the parent perspective
but just like seeing a teacher of 15 month old children get so nervous to talk to a parent about how to redirect their hitting or how to redirect like they're throwing things and I'm like who yell at you like I'm so sorry because I'm like you're traumatized

it goes back to just like basic respect, I feel like, you know, recognizing that, yeah, okay, fine, I'm the expert in behavior whoop-de-doo, you're the expert in your child, you know, and what I can give you all the behavioral recommendations that I want, but if the child isn't buying into it, you're gonna know, because like, your mom, your dad, your auntie, your whomever, your who's,

Grandma, whoever's caring for them on the daily basis, like they're gonna know what's gonna work and what's not gonna work. So.

Dana Marie

I think we'll name this episode, I'm the behavior specialist whoop-de-doo. I think that's what you said. I'm the behavior expert whoop-de-doo. I think that's what we'll name this episode.

Karyn Roy

Oh my gosh, please do.

Whoop-de-do. Welcome to ABA 101, whoop-de-do.

Michelle

I think we should.

Dana Marie

And like we told you, an hour goes by really, really fast around here. So that is our time for today. Thank you so much for joining us. I think I put a pin in about five other offshoot topics that we could have also taken an hour on. So there might be a part two. I think there's eventually at some point, at some point we're looking at a part two for sure. But

Karyn Roy

Do we have like a like five weeks maybe

Let's do a part two and let's do it.

Dana Marie

But in the meantime, thank you, Karen, so much for joining us on the podcast and sharing your background, your knowledge, some really super helpful tips for both parents and school teams when it comes to behavior. We are grateful for you joining us. Everybody else, we're grateful for you listening and that is all for today and we will see you here you next week on the Empower to Advocate podcast. Goodbye, everybody.