Michelle She Her (00:00.918)

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Empowered to Advocate podcast. I'm Michelle, and I am joined here with Dana Marie and our very, very special guest, Dr. Jennifer Hutton, or Dr. J-Pop. She is a pediatric physical therapist from Nashville, Tennessee, and she graduated from Loma Linda University with her doctorate in physical therapy in 2008. She has worked both in the clinic

And from 2018 to 2022, she taught continuing ed for Rock Tape's FMT education. Working with families from marginalized communities allowed Dr. Hutton to see the health and healthcare access disparities that existed and sparked her desire to be an advocate outside of the clinic. In February, Dr. Hutton published the Get Movement Activity Deck for Kids. This deck is for all levels of ability to celebrate movement, diversity, and explore fun categories of creative movement, including breath, stretch,mobility, stability, balance, coordination, strength, and endurance. Dr. Hutton educates others on how to be effective allies to BIPOC and other marginalized communities through her Anti-Racism and Allyship Workshop Series, her membership program, Building Allyship, and her podcast, Beyond Allyship. Dr. Hutton's mission is to facilitate spaces of connection, accountability, constructive challenging of ideas, and community learning. helping others strengthen their voice and stance as change makers in their workplaces and community. Thank you so much for joining us today. So excited. Yay. So I do like to turn this over to you to just give a little intro of yourself and then we'll just have a fun conversation about all the things that you're doing because you're doing so many incredible things

Jpop (01:35.566)

Thank you for having me.

Dana Marie (01:53.026)

So many things.

Jpop (01:54.358)

Well, the first thing I want y'all to know is I do take a break. I do rest because it sounds like I do a lot, right? But it's extremely important. But honestly, what I usually will add is I got into pediatric physical therapy because I am the oldest of 14 cousins and the youngest was born three months premature and ended up being diagnosed with cerebral palsy.

Michelle She Her (02:00.687)

Mm-hmm. Rest is important.

Jpop (02:19.958)

So me getting into PT was personal because I got to watch all of the amazing things that his therapist were able to empower him to do. And it's hard to get a kid to engage with hard activities, especially when they don't want to. So I watched it and I was like, man, PTs are pretty awesome. Like they get to do all of these dope things. And if the doctor says, hey, the kid won't be able to do this, so don't even try it. I get to be the rebel that tries it. So That is what sparked me getting into healthcare.

Michelle She Her (02:54.762)

Awesome. Yeah. I originally got into special education for, by having, well, I have family members who have special needs. So that is also how I decided to go into that niche in education. Yeah.

Dana Marie (02:55.65)

I love that.

Jpop (02:55.871)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think it changes how you move when you're in it too, because there is that personal link of how you would want someone to show up for your friends or your family. So you tend to show up in that same way.

Dana Marie (03:25.414)

So tell us or tell everybody a little bit about what does a pediatric PT actually do? What's a day to day look like?

Jpop (03:32.97)

I call us mastermind manipulators of little children simply because we are tasked with helping children reach gross motor milestones. So you know, you're crawling, you're rolling, you're walking, you're going up and down stairs, running, skipping. And yes, we try to do or think up fun ways to help you reach those milestones. But, I'm sorry, kids are kids and sometimes they're just really not interested. So you become extremely creative and you learn how to think on your feet. But probably one of the most beautiful things to me is being a pediatric PT, you become part of that child's village. You become an advocate for not just the child but for what the family and the caregivers need as well. And you also show the parents and show the caregivers how to show up for their child. I've had plenty of parents where they've said, well, I asked this provider for this and they said no. I'm like, no, it's not acceptable. That's your child. You birthed that thing or you adopted that child or they are in your custody. So here's what we're going to do. So I think it allows me to spend more time with the families, which is why I love the physical therapy aspect. And when they're children, we tend to work in teams. So it's not uncommon for one child to have pediatric PT, a pediatric occupational therapist, and a pediatric speech therapist, depending on what their diagnosis is. So it becomes a team approach to help the child basically thrive however they can.

Dana Marie (05:13.642)

I love how you just described sort of working with the parent and caregiver as part of the team. I think that one thing that we talked about actually on a recent podcast that can be challenging is when parents are working with specialists in school, PTs, OTs, SLPs, so on and so forth, it can be kind of a different relationship, right? The parent doesn't have as much time to kind of talk to you know, the PT or the PTA to see what's going on in school and what the therapy looks like and what the services look like and so on and so forth. It's usually maybe one meeting only during the school year, two, three max where the parents actually getting a chance. So if you could talk a little bit about sort of working outside of like that school system in your space, what looks different than maybe what would happen like in a school space and generally PT, OT, you know, any sort of ancillary services like that.

Jpop (05:46.571)

this

Right, so in the clinic, I will say in my experience working in the clinic, you have contact to pretty much all of the disciplines that the child is seeing, which means I usually always have access to paperwork. So that multidisciplinary aspect is a lot easier. And it informs how I create treatment plans and the goals that I have.

It changes just the nature of how connected we are. Some school PTs love it, but honestly, they are usually there to help the child function in school. And so the goals are usually based on the child being in that school environment. Now, I am a PT who, if the child has a school PT, I want to talk to them. I want us to work in tandem. I'm very much, hey, we're all on the same team?

So if a parent says, I don't know what they're working on in school, then I usually say, well, can I talk to the PT and we can kind of coordinate what our goals are so that you, the parent, can know, hey, these are all the things that we should be working on. But that is typically the difference. And then some districts, some places don't have as much coverage as they need. So a lot of school PT's cover like whole district, not just one school, which can be hard because that means you may not see a kid every week, depending on how well staffed your district is. Whether us, we're either, if we're sitting in the back and we have an open spot, they're going to feel it. So we always are going to be able to see our kids for out whatever frequency we need to.

Michelle She Her (07:53.218)

Yeah, that collaboration piece is really so important. The being able to speak not only with the other people on the team, but across the environments. Because I think there's also this piece too, where that matter of consistency of goals to help generalize skills across different settings. So if you're working on certain skills in school and you're working on certain skills in the clinic, but they're not necessarily all the same skills.

Now the child's working on twice as many goals, but not across settings, right? So.

Jpop (08:30.058)

Yes, which is why I like the team approach for sure.

Michelle She Her (08:32.746)

Yeah, us too, we do.

Dana Marie (08:35.23)

Yeah, we do too. We do too.

Michelle She Her (08:39.138)

What is the difference between a physical therapist and an occupational therapist?

Dana Marie (08:43.358)

We get this all the time.

Jpop (08:45.534)

So it's funny because when they're younger, there may not be a lot that's different because if I'm working as a PT, I said I'm working usually on those gross motor milestones. An OT by definition is usually working on daily tasks, daily skill sets. So for a child, it might be feeding yourself. It may be getting dressed, it may be going to the bathroom. But if it's a five, six, seven month old, then a lot of us are really doing, we're working toward the same goal. Because if the six month old is not rolling, but we know that they can, then most of our activities are going to be in tandem when it comes to what we're working toward. But of course, the older they get, it's okay.

Are they able to follow multi-step directions? Okay? Can they take in the information that's being given and follow what they're at? What you're asking them to do so it becomes how do they function in life with these gross motor skills? Versus us well, we're still like no those gross motor skills. We're still working on your balance We're still working on your running. We're still working on you being able to move through different positions

So I always felt like the OT job kind of evolves into different skill sets as the child is growing up.

Dana Marie (10:06.978)

Interesting. Really interesting.

Michelle She Her (10:10.806)

That's helpful, because there are definitely parents and even teachers who don't know the difference between or even what they're like, oh, well, this person comes in to see my student every week, and I have no idea what they're working on. Again, this piece about that collaboration and even understanding what they're doing to help generate like. So if you're working on the skill in the OT room or the PT room or in the clinic.

Jpop (10:27.707)

Thank you.

Jpop (10:30.4)

Yeah.

Michelle She Her (10:39.778)

We want to be able to see, is this transferring into the classroom? Is this transferring into the home? So if folks can understand what you're doing, then they're better able to see, oh, this is what's happening in that half hour each week or this hour each week

Jpop (10:45.385)

Exactly.

And it's a great example that I usually use because everybody will understand it. If a child cannot hold a pencil in the classroom, then we're working on pencil. We're working on their ability with their fine motor skills. So yes, we may be playing with paper clips and doing little things with our finger, but it's all to get us back to the point where you can hold that pencil and do your writing skills while you're in school.

Dana Marie (11:22.066)

Makes so much sense. Well, we started out by throwing our listeners a softball. So now we're gonna really get into it. Now we're gonna get into it. So still applies to your work as a pediatric PT, but you talked in a recent conversation with Dr. London. It was actually, I think your follow-up conversation with Dr. London about collective trauma. And I think you were specifically talking.

Jpop (11:23.694)

Yeah.

Jpop (11:30.972)

Let's do it. Let's dance to it.

Dana Marie (11:49.298)

in reference to the Tennessee 3 and what it feels like as an adult, as a caregiver, as a specialist to feel dysregulated, to feel angry, to feel like you've experienced trauma in some way, shape or form and how you can't then pour from an empty cup. I think it was Dr. London who used that sort of analogy towards the end of the conversation. How does that show up in your work? Because you're saying that you got into pediatric PT because of a family member, which is very personal, you know, a family member with CP and working with kids of all abilities, as we all know, Michelle and I have been in special education for a long time as well, it can be really challenging when you yourself are feeling the effects of COVID-19, family stuff, you know, just the collective trauma of living in the United States of America. How do, I mean, sincerely, how do you then, as the person who's servicing young people, sometimes really little people with disabilities and different abilities, how are you able to sort of navigate it? You mentioned rest at the beginning, which is why I wanted to bring it up, but how do you navigate that, taking care of yourself in order to obviously be able to take care of the folks that you're working with?

Jpop (13:05.278)

I will say when I was full time in the clinic, my boundary game was strong outside of the clinic. I really didn't do a lot of socializing during the week. My workout routine was mandatory. There were things that I would, there were things that I would do at work, like maybe during lunchtime, I actually went into a treatment room and took a nap especially if I was having a really long day with a lot of complex kids, if I might not have gone into the lunchroom with my colleagues to eat, because sensory-wise, I may have needed to just put in headphones and knock out some documentation because maybe that's what's hampering me being able to move forward during the day. I think one privilege that we have as PTs or as therapists, differing from teachers is I can say no to a patient. I can say, hey, we don't work well together and it's stressing the child out, which means it's stressing me out. Can we find a better fit? Not cause I'm trying to get rid of it, cause I love a difficult child. I wouldn't even say difficult child. I love a child with needs that maybe don't match my skillset. Let's put it that way. I love that because then I'm probably gonna go figure out what skillset I need to service the child.

Jpop (14:29.538)

But if I'm putting you in this state every week, then no, I don't want you to be traumatized by me. So it required me to be insanely aware of everything that was coming into my space and insanely protective of everything that was going on outside of the clinic as well. And my friends would say, you're really like no fun during the week, nope. I can't send you a thousand text messages during the week. We can talk on the weekend because all of my energy, I chose a profession that I wanted to channel my energy into these kids and they're gonna get it. They're gonna get all of me. So it definitely required strong rest, strong activity and strong boundaries is what I would say.

Michelle She Her (15:19.102)

I think that in 2023, I think definitely from 2020 and on, that term boundaries has become a very important word for folks to internalize and for it to not just be another buzzword on Instagram, right? I feel like there's a lot of really great ideas and concepts that then Instagram takes and for, you know probably well intended, but it just becomes a hashtag and then it becomes just like something that's like surface level. But really like what you were just talking about having this boundary, like this is what I need during the week and this is how I'm going to uphold this for not only for me, but for the goodness of the folks that I work with and the folks that I love in my life, right? Because when we have strong boundaries, it benefits everybody

Jpop (16:11.758)

It does. It does. I think 2020, and I will, I will be grateful for the day when we don't have to say that, but here we are. Since 2020, everybody was actually able to see how, how people were overriding their boundaries or how they didn't have them at all. So in a state where everybody was kind of not knowing what was coming next, some of us were in panic mode, some of us were essential workers everybody was really at that heightened sense of, I need to figure out how to keep myself safe. And it's why you saw the max exodus out of some of the workforce. It's why a lot of people started working for themselves because they realized I'm the only one that can create the system that I need to feel safe or feel rested and feel like I can show up for people. So I think that's why it became such a buzzword.

And you're right, it gets watered down. But I think the more we practice it, the more people can see, oh, this is a boundary. This is not someone being rude. This isn't someone that just wants to say, no, this is someone who knows themself enough to say, nah, this is what I need to be okay. And as long as I'm not harming anyone else, then everybody should respect it.

Dana Marie (17:31.49)

Which I think is good to model for kids and families anyways, right? I mean, like, I think of the parents who, it's probably the parents and caregivers that you come into contact with a lot. It's certainly the parents and caregivers that Michelle and I come into contact with are just, they're working. They're working at their day jobs, they're working with their families, they're working with their kids, they are working. And they're tired. And they come to us and they're usually overwhelmed to some degree. And that's why they're seeking support and they might feel burnt out or they've maybe already, they might be beyond burnt out at that point. And so I think that, you know, I struggle, Michelle knows, I struggle with boundaries. I think when you go into the helping profession, it's something that you have to do a little bit more intentionally than maybe folks who aren't in a helping profession. And that's a broad stroke and a broad statement, but my sense is that when you're working directly with people, young people especially, it's really hard to set that boundary because it's a-

It's a little life on the other end of your work, right? It's not just some, you know, spreadsheet or whatever. So one thing I've been trying to retrain myself to think is, you know, if I model kind boundaries, not just boundaries, but boundaries that feel kind and respectful, I wonder if a parent or caregiver will look at that and think like, maybe I can do that for myself, like maybe I don't need to feel as urgent. Maybe I don't need to respond to the teacher one minute after the teacher sends me an email. Like, this is my kid, my family, I can like take a moment to sit back and maybe I can get back to them tomorrow. So when I'm struggling with boundaries, I try to think of it as modeling boundaries for other folks that we're working with too as a way to maybe give them a little bit of rest, like give them a little bit of reprieve as well, which is something I was thinking about when you...

Jpop (19:22.678)

I love that. No, I love that. And I had several parents in the clinic where I've had to ask, what do you need right now? I mean, what do you need that I can survive? And if they say, can you do this session without me in it? Absolutely. We will cover, we will recap at the end. And then there were times when parents' emotions were heightened over things that were going on. And I'd have to say, I need you to step outside because how your feeling is impacting how the session's going, and we want it to be successful. So those were the kind of modelings that I was able to do. And then say, hey, the boundary of you're going to answer my phone call, you're going to listen when I have something to say about my child in these sessions, that was something I wanted parents to practice with me. Like if you don't like how something was done, absolutely tell me, I'm not married to what I put down on paper. I want to make sure you and your child get what they need. So I think that's a beautiful way, modeling in a beautiful way to help parents and caregivers see that.

Dana Marie (20:30.402)

And in those moments, you probably gave those parents too, like a little bit of like, I can trust this person, right? This is the professional, this is the person who went to many years of school to be able to provide the service for my child, right? I think for a parent too, that can feel good, right? It can feel like, oh, I don't have to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders. I have this person here who is highly qualified and helpful and can actually take my child for 30 minutes or 40 minutes and do this work with them. And I can actually take a deep breath and say, I'm not in charge of this whole thing, this moment, this piece of the puzzle here. And I think for a parent that could probably feel pretty good, even maybe not initially, but in the long term, that can probably feel like a little bit of a reprieve as well. Doing that for them.

Jpop (21:13.863)

Absolutely.

Michelle She Her (21:16.426)

Yeah. What does a typical session look like? And I know that all kids are different and everybody is gonna have different things, but do you have a certain structure that you typically follow during a session or is it just really completely individualized?

Jpop (21:34.819)

It definitely depends on the child. Of course, and then there's the evaluation. That's when I'm meeting you, I am assessing your child, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to treat you, depending on how the clinic is set up. So you're entering into, hey, this is PT, this is what we do. And that's usually how I will start off my evaluations. Do you understand why your child is here? Simple question to start with, because most of them are like, no

Somebody called me, I made the appointment. Are you working on their feeding? No, that's the speech therapist. But here's what we do, because then even their expectations of what's going to happen is changing. And that information for them and that information for me is important as we move in. And then you go into what's the history. And some of this is the same for every session. It's just the timing and the appropriate. approach is different. But I want to know the history of the health. I want to know, is your child in school? Is there a caregiver present? Are you working full time? Is there, these are the, do you have transportation? What are some of the, you know, specs of your house? What does it look like? Is there outdoor space for them to play in? Because I'm going to have to formulate a plan that fits your child. So if you are a single mom with five children and you are also working full-time, maybe two jobs, I can't send home a thousand exercises for you. I have to consider your schedule, I have to consider the child's schedule when I'm creating that. And then once we have set the goals and once we've said, hey, this is what we're working on, then the parent knows any activity we do from here on out is geared towards those goals.

Dana Marie (23:08.351)

Right.

Jpop (23:27.37)

So the next time you come in, I might say, hey, how'd they do this week? Did you have any problem with any of the exercises? Were there any behavior disturbances that you want to talk about, any concerns? No, you're good? Awesome, let's start the session. And depending on the age, if they're 16 and 17, they're literally like, just tell me what I have to do so I can go home.

Dana Marie (23:50.498)

That's how I am in PT. That's what I sound like in PT. Oops.

Jpop (23:56.45)

And that's fine. I'm fine with that. Like I was like, okay, well, let's get to it then I'm still gonna ask you questions and engage because I want to make sure I'm connected to how you're feeling while you're here But I'm not gonna chastise you and be like, how was your day in school today? And no you want to get to business But if you're six and school just ended you might be tired or you might be restless So let's choose something to energize you or to get you into the session and then we're just gonna pick activities that are based off the goals. Now the hard part is when you plan everything out and they come in and don't wanna do anything that you say. That's when I employ the, okay, you pick the toy and I'll make it therapeutic. That way I'm giving them some agency in the session, but I'm also saying you can do this, but that means I get to do this. And then there's the give and take that they're learning with therapy as well.

Dana Marie (24:58.594)

That's a really good segue. Let's talk about the movement deck. And this is a two-part question. So the first part is, how did the movement deck come to be? And then I think the follow-up question, or second part of the question is, why is it – and you kind of just mentioned it was playing – but why is it so important to incorporate joy and fun into the work that you're doing? So two parts.

Jpop (25:23.998)

Yeah. So in 2020, you know, a lot of people were scrolling on social media. And I didn't find this out actually until last year, but apparently someone on the marketing team of Shambhala Publications was doom scrolling. And I had put up this fun ladybug outfit on and done. I was like, pandemic was a struggle for me. I literally put on like Ladybug wings and I did the imagine that workout and I did it for parents to do with their kids I'm like, I know y'all need something to do and this is a fun video So here take it and do it and she saw it and went to her team and said we need to work with her so I they reached out and I put together a proposal and It just kind of cascaded from there They let me do it how I wanted to they wanted me to incorporate the diversity of you know, movement differences and physical differences into it. And they let me pick my illustrator, which I, of course, chose to pick someone from a marginalized background because I recognize how mainstream a lot of these spaces are. So that project, I mean, it was three years in the making and then just came out in February. So it's been so amazing, it's already won two awards that I didn't even know it was possible to do that. I was like, these are cool awards, where did they come from? But I think my desire to incorporate joy and movement, let's start it this way, is there was a rule in our house, you had to play a sport and you had to play an instrument. And I liked certain sports, but I personally was a dancer. Like I loved to dance and tap and act and do that sort of thing. But my parents' rule was, okay, if you don't do a sport, you have to be active at least. And while I hated it at 11, by 16, I was saying, hey, I have play practice at six. I'm gonna run to the Y for 30 minutes and do whatever I choose. And then I'm gonna come back because they had started to instill movement is important for your mental health, not just for your physical, but your mental health. And all I wanted was for it to be fun. And so my goal when it comes to movement and children is please make it fun. Why would they wanna come back to something that's not, there's enough hard stuff they're dealing with in the world, especially if they have a disability. Why would I choose to make them move and then make it boring?

So I think that's why it's so important for Joy to just be infused into whatever movement I produce for kids.

Michelle She Her (28:17.23)

I love that. And I will say, so I have a deck. I actually meant to bring the deck home with me so I could show it on the video. But it's when students come to visit, I'm not in the classroom anymore, so when students come down with their teachers to visit me, I'll let them pick a card from the deck and they'll do the movement, as long as it's something that is accessible in that moment for them

Michelle She Her (28:42.798)

But all of our kindergarten classrooms, our integrated kindergarten classrooms and our sub-separate classrooms have a copy of your movement deck. And it's really fun to watch them using it and to have an option for a resource for them and the teachers where they can see kids that look like them is just so powerful. And so I really appreciate that you birthed us into the world for kids and families to have access to.

Jpop (29:15.65)

Thank you.

Yeah, the being able to see yourself was important for the kids that I worked with. And also the kids that I don't because I always felt like every child doesn't see differences. And that's why they stare. That's why they have questions. That's why it feels foreign to them when they come in contact with it. But even if you put it in illustrations, it's still some type of, you know, exposure. So that was another big piece of it for me.

Michelle She Her (29:52.214)

I think that there's, I mean, I know that there is so much bias and, you know, things that aren't thought about when people are creating materials for therapists and creating materials for educators. And like we've come away, but we still have a long way to go. So this is one beautiful step in that correct direction, right?

Jpop (30:17.826)

My goal is to create more. And I think now that I have my own business, I understand why there are not as many tools out there. And it's simply because if you don't have experience with it, it doesn't even come to mind. Usually when I talk about bias, I talk about identity. I don't like to do the gotcha messaging. It's like, yep, see, you got bias. Like, no, we all have it. So if you think about your own lived experience

and you think about what was missing from your lived experience, that means that's your level of ignorance when it comes to that. So if I've never seen someone in a wheelchair, I'm probably not gonna put it in my illustrations if I'm writing a book. But if I start to see it more, and the illustrator actually said that to me, I did a podcast episode with her, she said, Jennifer, I didn't know about cochlear implants. I didn't know about braces. I didn't even know those things existed.

And don't you know, the other day she put up an image and it was the kid with vitiligo and I about literally like lost, I was like, oh my God, this is so beautiful. But it was just that showing her that, she said, I wanna know more about the other beautiful differences that exist that I could put into my illustrations.

Dana Marie (31:25.942)

Beautiful.

That's so beautiful. I have to admit, I cannot remember where I saw this. I don't know if it was on your website. I can't remember if I listened to it in a podcast episode. So I have no idea where the sourcing came from, but it was you who said it, I know that. But you had talked, which feels very connected to this conversation about you don't know, you don't know quite frankly. And I think one of the things you were talking about is how PT and OT assessments, most of the, or many PT and OT assessments, were normed on only young people, children, from the United States and Canada, right? So like, just thinking holistically, a lot of the work that Michelle and I do is with parents and caregivers trying to understand evaluation results, right? Trying to understand evaluations in general, why their child is getting evaluated, assessed, so on and so forth, how those results will be used. So, you know, and I think one of the things that can be challenging in that space, obviously, is that many of these assessments and evaluations are normed mostly on white children, quite frankly, and Western white children. And I think the general public isn't super aware of that. And back to sort of your work, I think that we don't often see representation, right? Not just in like illustrations, like you said, with the deck and with, you know, books for young kids, but we don't often see representation when it comes to how we even service children with disabilities from the evaluations all the way down to practice and everything in between. And so I think that obviously the work that you're doing is so important on so many levels, but. even just opening that conversation around how we're even looking at kids, seeing what they know and what they don't know and what their strengths are and where their areas of need are. We have historically done that in a way that is so inequitable and so racist, obviously, and just even opening up that conversation. And so I guess my question is, how does, because your work is expansive and you work, it's

It is, and you work as a pediatric PT, but maybe not everyone here knows, we talked briefly about at the beginning, that you also run a course and a podcast around allyship and what it means to be a good, responsible ally. And so I guess my question is, how do all those things kind of fit together in the PT space, the pediatric PT space?

Jpop (34:15.853)

I think you actually said it, we're helpers. We are there to, we are service providers for humans. And if that's the case, then we care about what the human needs. We care about their lived experience and how what we do fits into who they are and who and what surrounds them. And allyship is pretty much the same thing.

I always say allyship is literally just caring about someone else's lived experience and also how they experience the world. And everybody, the three of us here have different lived experiences that we could speak on where one of us may have had a little bit more privilege in an area than others. We are three women, but when it comes down to the conversation of intersectionality, I still experience the world

differently than my female counterparts. So it literally, to me, I said, technically allyship should be healthcare. It should be how we show up in these spaces, minus the ego, minus, I mean, the degree is great, it got you in the door, but I always say that person knows their life better than I do. So I can't come in and say, we gotta do XYZ.

I can say, hey, here's what's expected, but I wanna make sure that we are servicing your needs. So talk to me about you. What does a day look like for you? You know, what does school look like for you? What does meal time look like for you? Because then I can take my skillset, because hey guys, if you don't do it the way that school taught you, it's still your skillset. Just letting everybody know, it's okay to take it, because that's the foundation of your knowledge.

But then because you are a service provider, how does it fit into that child's world? Not how does that child fit into healthcare? That's been the problem, because most of us don't fit in healthcare. It is a business for money, let's just keep it real. So when I think of allyship, to me, if I'm a service provider, I should already have that in my bag, because it's going to alter how I service those who come into my space

And it took me, I'm at a, I always say this cause I'm like, I'm on these podcasts and I love talking about this stuff but I don't want people to think I've always gotten it right. I want people to know it took me saying, well, your kid is supposed to be doing exercises three times a week, why didn't you help them do it? And then the parent saying, well, I didn't get any time off this week, I can't take PTO. And I'm like, oh shoot. I didn't even consider your life.

I gotta switch up how I do this thing.

Dana Marie (37:11.102)

If I could go back and tell my first, I don't know, seven year teacher's self, the literal first seven, why don't you do your homework? Why don't you bring in your, all the, oh, I mean, we learn and we grow, obviously. Which is, which is, yeah. Yeah.

Jpop (37:23.426)

We do, we do, and we hope that we don't scar people along the way.

Michelle She Her (37:29.698)

Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's part of being human too, and being human in a world that has structures that are in place to keep different groups of people separated and not necessarily knowing and learning about each other's lived experiences. So the first step in recognizing that those systems exist and that we can move past it as long as we're willing to have those conversations and being willing to accept when we do get things wrong and moving forward from that in a way that's responsible and respectful, right?

Jpop (38:11.882)

Yes, yeah, I will say sometimes I'm harder on myself as the healthcare provider, simply because it's a life. A life that I know I could alter the trajectory if I'm not careful. So I say this sometimes, everybody deserves compassion, but you also have to acknowledge when you've accepted a role that carries great responsibility. You do. So you'll mess up, but please don't mess up in the same way twice.

Michelle She Her (38:40.042)

Yep. Yep, 100%

Jpop (38:42.162)

Once you learn, do better.

Michelle She Her (38:45.142)

do better. And I think that holds true for teachers, where the things that we say, the biases that we carry, the way that we rely heavily on the way things that have always been done, and even thinking about the traditional classroom setting and how it's been designed for one type of learner and then adding all these other services and pieces on as making accommodations for students who learn differently as opposed to thinking about it as a place of, well, we have all different learners, here's how we can design a space to meet all those needs instead of adding the things on afterwards, right?

Jpop (39:28.93)

Yes, this part isn't in my bio and I don't put a lot about it on social media, but I am part of an organization called Be Well in School. And part of what I do is go in, basically Be Well is re-imagining discipline in the school system. So if a school has a Be Well teacher, the child does not necessarily, let's say they have an outburst or disrupt class, they get the option to go to the Be Well room.

Jpop (39:57.758)

And in the Be Well room, the Be Well teacher says, hey, what happened? What do you need right now? Do you need to breathe? Do you need to move? Do you need to punch a pillow? Let's do that and then come back and talk to me so we can talk about what led you there. And it's basically giving kids these coping skills for all of the emotions that they're experiencing. And I started doing trainings for their educators on racial identity development in terms of psychosocial context and how it does look different for different children. And

Maybe one kid is an internalizer and the other one has external behaviors. And so working, I have loved that new aspect of the business because they spend so much time with you all. They spend most of their life in school. So you want educators to be equipped with what they need so that they can be okay when they're teaching. And also the kids can feel safe in those environments. And I was starting to see so many kids in the clinic with chronic illnesses that stemmed from anxieties that they were developing in school. It wasn't always the teacher, sometimes it was the school environment, but I have a big passion now, like healthcare in school, we should be linked. We should be linked and we should be able to come to each other to make sure that we're giving each other the resources that are necessary. So I have utmost respect for you all, for educators, and I have loved working with you too.

Michelle She Her (41:28.91)

Thank you.

Dana Marie (41:29.41)

Oh, I cannot wait to dig more into the, it's a good thing, it's a good thing I didn't know that about you because that would have been the entire trajectory I think of the conversation because now I'm looking at time and we don't have time to dig here. So maybe for a later conversation, but that's something that, you know, Michelle and I have talked lots about around dismantling discipline in school and the health implications and results of just school discipline practices. And luckily I do think that some folks not all folks, but some folks are at least having those conversations now that I didn't necessarily see happening when I started teaching over 15 years ago. And so that part feels good that people are actually starting to talk about discipline and the ties to the school to prison pipeline and so on and so forth. But the conversations are still pretty new and still in their infancy. So the work that you are doing there sounds incredible, obviously. So have to, we'll have to take dig a little bit more there for sure. But like I said, not in this conversation because we did promise you, in and out in an hour, we did promise you that we wouldn't go through the whole list of questions. Oh, goodness.

Jpop (42:32.582)

I'll come back. I'll come back.

Michelle She Her (42:44.354)

Yeah, I mean, well, because of course, I just wanna dig into the conversation about discipline. Ha ha.

Jpop (42:50.067)

Y'all dig, y'all dig. We are not tied to the hour, dig. Do what you need to do.

Michelle She Her (42:57.066)

I mean, when we're talking about disabilities and when we're talking about who is identified in schools as having certain categories of disabilities and what is, what the trajectory for a child once they carry a certain label, particularly a label of ADHD or emotional disability and where that

Dana Marie (43:25.287)

ODD.

Michelle She Her (43:26.782)

ODD or, you know, that starts to project them on, even though we say we don't track students, it tracks, it begins a tracking process where the outcome is not necessarily the best outcome over the lifetime of that person, right? So helping educators and parents understand that

Michelle She Her (43:52.43)

There are different things that we can do in the classroom that may not look like what it looked like when we were in school, right? That's what we hear a lot. Well, if things were just like what they were like in the 80s, I'm like, oh, thank goodness they're not.

Dana Marie (44:03.552)

No, thank God.

Michelle She Her (44:06.938)

I mean, I feel like...

Dana Marie (44:09.942)

for a lot of reasons, thank God.

Michelle She Her (44:13.666)

Like we've made some growth there, but there's still this idea, like, it's almost like the Norman Rockwell painting where people are like, well, in the 50s, everything was so wonderful. And I was like, yeah, for some people.

Jpop (44:27.938)

I used to think about how many kids got sent outside to sit outside the classroom. That was the measure of discipline in the 80s and 90s. You were disruptive, go sit outside. While the rest of us learned, there were things that as a kid you're like, that makes absolutely no sense. We don't need to bring that back, we don't.

Dana Marie (44:43.498)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Then as an adult, you're like, oh, that was worse than I thought it was. Yeah, that was that was actually worse than I thought. Yeah.

Michelle She Her (44:54.902)

I mean, kids are still sent out of the classroom and because there's this, you know, this idea of, well, if they're being disruptive and I'm a teacher by myself with 30 other kids in the classroom, if the student's running around the room ripping things off the walls, then how am I supposed to help the other 29 kids in the class, right? So there's this constant like push and pull of how are we best serving all 30 students?

Dana Marie (44:56.892)

I know.

Jpop (45:19.054)

Okay.

Michelle She Her (45:24.298)

in the room and sitting in an office for some of the day and not having access to your learning or sitting there and doing worksheets is not the solution.

Jpop (45:37.174)

Not at all, not at all. It's why I like the Be Well structure. A teacher doesn't send a child, they ask the child, do you need to go to the Be Well room? Would you like to go to the Be Well room? And the child can ask and the teacher cannot refuse. So if a child starts to feel a certain way and they say, can I go to the Be Well room? Absolutely, you absolutely can. And how it's tracked is in the beginning of the year, the kid may ask every day to go, but once they receive the skills, the coping skills that they need to regulate, we want to see it go down to maybe once a week, maybe they're coming every other week. But just that freedom in a structured environment to say, I need something different than what you're providing and it's right there, can I go get it? That teaches a child so much. One, listen to yourself which we weren't taught that. Remember, we had to, like, you have to, I have to go to the bathroom, wait. Wait until it's time to go to the bathroom. What? I don't have to wait, what? Why should you, you know, those are the things that you think of and just looking at the whole of discipline. People think it's just getting in trouble, it's not. Discipline is not just a child getting in trouble. It's actually them being able to become self-aware of how they feel in a moment and express what they need. So...

Dana Marie (46:42.05)

No you don't, yeah. Yeah.

Jpop (47:07.711)

I champion educators who even without the resources are trying to do that stuff because I know that it's not easy.

Dana Marie (47:14.422)

Mm-hmm. That's not, there are lots trying to work within, and listen, like work within systems that aren't working with them for sure. You know, working within systems that are certainly working against them. And people are still trying to do good work. But I love, you know, I think in all of our work, what you just said is so crucial to giving students, young people, children, as young as the littlest ones, the ability to like know what's going on inside their body and to be able to like be in tune and in touch with what's going on inside and outside of their body and what feels good, what doesn't feel good. Like you said, going to the bathroom, but also just like it's too noisy in here, right? My ears don't feel good. My head is about to explode. You know, when we were kids, nobody told us to listen to our bodies. You ate at a certain time, you know, God love our parents. But slept at a certain time, dinner was at five and you either ate at five or you didn't eat. I mean like those, but I think that there is like a similar to discipline there is a bit of a movement now in schools where we are teaching kids, probably not across the board, but where folks are starting to teach kids to actually be in tune with and listen to their bodies. I know it's probably a lot of the work that you do with the little ones that you work with.

But I think that's such just valuable life skill, not just a school skill, but that is a life skill that we unfortunately were not taught. We had to learn as adults, quite frankly, but such a valuable tool that you're giving these kids to say, I actually need something different than what is going on in my classroom right now. And I know where I can get what I need. And it's in this space with this person doing this activity or this task or whatever. That's such a powerful thing for a young person to be affirmed in that moment too.

Jpop (48:52.905)

Yeah.

Jpop (48:57.098)

Exactly.

Jpop (49:06.756)

Thank you.

Dana Marie (49:07.178)

Like I see you knowing what's going on with your body. I'm going to affirm that, encourage you to go do the thing that you're asking to do. And then like you said, the next time that just builds a skill, obviously.

Jpop (49:23.086)

We talk a lot about how we were raised and I've, looking above my parents, I've realized you were doing what you were taught and how you were parented is how you parented me with differences because there were things you didn't like that you wanted to do differently and to me it's the same. It allows me to have compassion for, you know, some of the ways I was raised that maybe weren't beneficial to how I moved but also it gives me that extra vigor.

Dana Marie (49:33.386)

100%.

Jpop (49:51.662)

to make sure the next kid or the next generation feels more in tune with themselves, feels more connected to themselves, to their bodies. And I think the realization of ourselves as providers and educators is, what's your emotional intelligence? Even as a parent, what's your emotional intelligence? You might not be able to understand why your child is acting the way that they are because you can't get in touch with the emotion that they're feeling. So how can you or go ahead.

Dana Marie (50:26.331)

Or you're not willing to, like even as a teacher, I wasn't willing to accept the feeling that I was feeling based on how the child was acting too. I wasn't in tune with how it was making me feel. And obviously as I'll speak for myself, I would get defensive and so on and so forth. So I couldn't even understand or affirm what the child was feeling because I was having my own feelings that I wasn't in tune with and touch with. I think that's an important piece for adults too.

Jpop (50:42.178)

What's wrong?

Jpop (50:50.31)

Exactly. Absolutely.

Michelle She Her (50:55.798)

Yeah, because everybody in a space is going to have their own viewpoints and their own experiences. And when someone says something, that's going to make some people feel a certain kind of way, but it might make some people feel another kind of way. And there's no way of necessarily knowing that. And I think, you know, circling back to earlier, you had said, you know, giving the student, the children, the young people agency over what they're doing during their sessions, giving them agency and like being able to fully consent to what they're doing, that body autonomy that they, young people really don't have a lot of that in their world, in their life. And I find that so many of them, especially for kids who have difficulty with their expressive language or have some sensory processing challenges, it's so hard for them to express what they need, what they want, and they sometimes don't even realize what they need and what they want. And they're met with such resistance on the other side. Not necessarily with a malicious intent, but with this like, well, this is unacceptable behavior. We have to change this. We have to squash this.

Jpop (52:19.998)

Yeah, I have a nephew that just turned five and if he tells me no, that's it. If we're playing and he or if I say, hey, can I have a hug? And he says no, nope, because I want him to know that his no and his yes are important. And if he doesn't feel like being in personal contact with someone, then that is absolutely okay. But we can sometimes get so hung up on the how they communicated. And I'm always like, well, actually, you're the one in the deficit.

If you can't understand that there's different ways to express an emotion, you want it expressed a certain way. You want it expressed in the way that makes you feel good. But in that kid's mind, they want to feel good too, and this is how they express it. Can you telegraph that? Can you pick up on it? And maybe, yeah, they can't throw something, but we can show them things they can do when they are feeling angry as we acknowledge their anger. So it's we keep thinking the kid is a blank slate. No, it is a little human that is evolving and learning with you. So what can you do to better yourself for this child as well?

Michelle She Her (53:32.662)

That whole idea of it was just something you did. You went and hugged grandma and grandpa when you left their house, right? And you, it was like expected. And then if you said no, then it's, well, how do you think grandma feels? And it's like, well, again, like it's the, the adults feeling being superior to the child's feelings. And it's like, but.

Dana Marie (53:47.426)

How do you think I feel?

Jpop (53:47.429)

Ah.

Dana Marie (53:58.634)

Yeah, I've seen this beautiful shift though lately. Like even when I'm around like my friends and their kids, I've seen a shift where folks are asking kids for consent. Even the littlest kids when it comes to like a hug or you know, things like that, getting in their space, right? And I am seeing more people understand and honor when, and affirm when a kid says no or not now or whatever.

Jpop (54:01.941)

Agreed.

Jpop (54:15.842)

This is it.

Dana Marie (54:25.586)

And I think that's an important thing, super related obviously to just affirming how kids feel in their bodies, period, and what emotions they're feeling, but also what's going on inside and outside. So I think that's something I hope that lots of folks are shifting on. Yeah.

Jpop (54:38.507)

Yes.

Jpop (54:43.15)

I think they are. I've definitely seen it more in the educators that are on social media or the therapists that are on social media saying exactly what we're saying with their terms. And I think the more accessible that type of information is, the greater the shift will be.

Dana Marie (54:49.578)

For sure. Yep.

Michelle She Her (55:05.351)

safety for them too, right?

Dana Marie (55:08.149)

Yeah.

Michelle She Her (55:10.114)

Yeah, I'm glad that we're having these conversations and this is one of the pieces, one of the ways that social media is so useful because I mean, there's a lot of garbage on social media as well, but there is also a lot of connection with a lot of beautiful things and a lot of beautiful ideas and a lot of really great learning to be shared, so.

Jpop (55:16.94)

It is.

Dana Marie (55:17.982)

It's true

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And how we hope lots more people find you because we think you are just absolutely wonderful. So with that said, how can people find you? Drop the details.

Jpop (55:35.127)

It's how we found each other. So, I mean, come on. It's great.

Michelle She Her (55:36.683)

Yeah!

Jpop (55:51.422)

My main platform is Instagram. So I usually say, don't even bother if you see me on Facebook and Twitter, come on over to Instagram, it's dr.jpop. And then if you have a question and you say, I'm not really on Instagram, then info at drjpop.com is my email address. Okay.

Michelle She Her (56:13.834)

And we're going to drop the link for all things you, how everybody can find you for the movement deck. Definitely everybody listening, make sure you go get yourself a copy and gift a copy to maybe your child's educators. So, sure. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And I do think that we'll probably have to have you on for part two.

Dana Marie (56:28.838)

Yeah, it's a good back to school gift for the fall. Yeah.

Jpop (56:32.043)

Yes, it really is. Yes.

Michelle She Her (56:43.733)

Maybe a part three.

Dana Marie (56:44.334)

After we dig into the B-well too, I'm excited to dig in there. Awesome. Cool.

Jpop (56:48.91)

I'll definitely give you all the information. And it actually would be cool to have the founder on. Yeah, so I would love to come back.

Michelle She Her (56:49.193)

Yes.

Dana Marie (56:54.606)

Yeah, that would be amazing. That's such an important conversation. Oh, can't wait. Well, thank you so, so much. Thank you everybody for listening as always. Happy Friday. Most of you listen on Friday, so happy Friday. Otherwise, we will talk to you all soon. A reminder that this is actually the end of our season because it is June, it is the end of the school year. We're gonna take a couple weeks off and then we will be back.

Dana Marie (57:25.209)

So we will talk to you very soon. Thanks everybody.