Dana Marie (00:01.205)

Hi everybody and welcome back to the Empower to Advocate podcast. This is Dana Marie. I am joined by Michelle and our very special guest today, Melissa Derr. I'll give a really brief introduction to Melissa and then we'll actually toss it to her and she'll tell us a little bit about who she is and what she does. So Michelle and I met Melissa in the district that we all used to work in. Melissa was our assistive technology specialist.

and she came in and did evaluations for any of our kiddos that needed an assistive tech evaluation and then helped the school team implement. You know, once the evaluation was done and the report was completed, any of the tools, strategies, etc. that came from that evaluation. And so that's kind of how we all got to know each other. Since then, Melissa has moved on is is doing some different us a little bit today about who she is and what she does and also what exactly is assistive technology, why is it helpful, who is it helpful for and how does it apply to our work in special education. So with that I am going to toss it over to Melissa to introduce herself.

Melissa (01:19.857)

Hi, hi everybody. Thanks Michelle and Danemarie. I'm so excited to be here. So as Danemarie said, I am an assistive technology specialist, but I started out my career, professional career, I guess, as a special education teacher. I taught elementary special education for a couple of years and due to a move, ended up kind of discovering assistive technology

falling in love with it as a way to be in education without necessarily being a classroom teacher but getting to really kind of problem solve for students and teachers and you know hopefully make education more accessible to students. So I've done that for the past 11 or 12 years. Wow. And so yeah, as Dan Marie said, I moved state. So I'm doing.

a little bit different now. I'm doing some virtual and remote assessments and consultations and education and also doing some early intervention and working within other assistive technology realms.

Michelle She Her (02:37.450)

So cool. That's so cool. Tell us a little bit about what assistive technology is. What does that even mean? Because it's definitely, I would say it's a trending term that you hear a lot at meetings, but not a lot of people necessarily know exactly what it is.

Melissa (02:58.457)

Absolutely, yes. So assistive technology or AT, you know, us educators, we like our alphabet soup of, you know, abbreviations and everything. But yes, either people have no idea what it is and they're like AT what, or they're like AT, we need that, whatever it is, we've got to have it. And usually the answer is somewhere in the middle there. But so like the, the

any item, any piece of equipment, any software program, or product system that is used to increase, maintain, or improve the functional abilities of an individual with a disability. So it's very long and kind of complicated, but basically it is any technology that within the education space allows a diagnosed with a disability to access something that they cannot with their disability that then makes it possible. So in other words though, like the not technical definition, assistive technology is something that makes life easier for people. We all use assistive technology every day. People who wear glasses.

who have smartphones and talk to Siri or Alexa or whoever, that's assistive technology. It's just something that makes life easier for them, not necessarily something that makes it possible. So I wish I had the author or the person who said it, but someone said, you know, technology makes things easier for some people, but for people with disabilities, it makes it possible. And so that really kind of hammers it home. And like that's something that I often bring up in meetings. Like without this piece of equipment or this program, the student would not be able to show that they can do x, y, or z skill or access some piece of curriculum. So, you know, a student who's dyslexic could be, you know, generally they're very smart, have very high IQs, but reading isn't a challenge for them. It doesn't mean that they're not able to understand. So, when they're able to then use text to speech to listen to a book, they can get every are correct. It doesn't meet, you know, just because they do it in a different way and they're able to use the technology to access the content. That's the assistive tech piece.

Dana Marie (05:43.025)

Awesome. Thanks. As Michelle said, oftentimes we're talking to parents, caregivers, but even school teams who aren't even super sure what assistive tech means. So that definition was very helpful for me as well. But if I'm a parent or caregiver, and that's the majority of our listeners right now, how do I know if my child might require at least an evaluation for assistive technology? Like what would be the signs that I should be asking that question to the school team, to maybe my child's teacher?

Melissa (06:13.997)

So the thing that I generally start off my assessments or evaluations with is what is the student trying to do? What is the goal? What is the IEP objective that the team and the student and the family obviously, because they're part of the team, are trying to accomplish that the student cannot do with what is currently in place. Because when we're writing an IEP, a goal that we think is achievable, obtainable within that IEP period. And so if there's a hurdle there, why? And can assistive technology help get over that hurdle? And generally the answer is yes. Not always, but generally.

Dana Marie (07:08.605)

And so I guess my follow-up question, both for parents and caregivers, but also for folks working in schools, if you're the assistive technology specialist and you come in and you're going to conduct an evaluation, what does that evaluation look like? You just let us know how you start, what questions you're asking, but what does it look like, and also how is it different than maybe some other assessments and evaluations that are completed in special education?

Melissa (07:32.117)

Yeah. So often I will, you know, always I'll start by finding out from the family caregivers what they see as being the challenge for the student and then from also the school team as well. And usually they match up sometimes, no, but usually. And then so I will come in and I'll observation of the student in the environment where the challenge is seen. You know, like to be able to get eyes on the student experiencing that challenge and then I will then work with the student and sometimes the teacher trying different things and we use something called the set method. Well, that's what I use. It's the S-E-T-T method. and

text a little bit different from other assessments in that, you know, your, your audience here probably is familiar with like a psychoeducational evaluation and OT evaluation, a speech and language evaluation. And those are very prescriptive and standardized because we want to know, okay, like, you know, where are they falling within relation to average peers, right? In my case, there aren't standardized evaluations. It's looking at the student as an individual and the task that they're trying to accomplish. So that brings us back to the step method, right? So S is the student. So what are we look at their strengths? What are they really good at? So again, going back to a student whom they have dyslexia, maybe their reading is a big challenge, but they're a great oral speaker.

And then, you know, are they, what are they interested in? Do they have topics that they like, that sort of thing? You know, what are their strengths? What are those challenges? E is the environment. So where are these tasks taken place? So this could, this can apply to, you know, an adult working at an office or somewhere else. In our context, it's generally the school because they're students. But sometimes they could be, you know, students out in a work placement. or in preschool, you know, out on the playground, that sort of thing. And then the first T is the task. So what do they need to do? So that gets us to kind of the challenge, right? So is it writing? Is it reading? Is it something in math? Is it executive function? And within that, you know, kind of drilling down to be more specific. And then that takes us to our last is a way to identify what's going to help them. And, you know, we have an array to choose from once we've figured out the other three components and then try different things with the student to see what's most effective and what we think will make the most sense within the context that they are learning and working in.

Michelle She Her (10:57.050)

I love that this assessment that you use is so individualized and that it's not necessarily a normed base test and that it actually is giving accessibility. It could actually give accessibility to some of those normed tests that many students, it's not those times the test aren't super accessible to them because you can only give the directions in a certain way, a certain amount of time.giving a certain amount of time, right? No opportunity to learn from your mistakes and things. So I love that your assessment is actually accessible for everybody to find out what makes things accessible. Does that make sense?

Melissa (11:31.998)

totally.

Melissa (11:40.977)

Absolutely. I always try to, you know, speak with especially parents and caregivers, you know, particularly after like an initial evaluation, like their student has been through the ringer with all of those assessments, because it's focusing on the things that they're not good at, right? Like, if they were great at everything, they wouldn't be having these assessments, unfortunately. And it doesn't mean that they don't have strengths. We're just focusing on the areas that they're

And so we're trying to figure out to what degree, you know, is that affecting them and their academics and their ability to learn. And so I think kind of trying to reframe it in that way and that it's not, you know, what's wrong with the student, but finding the areas of challenge for them. Hopefully can make it a little bit easier for them. But then I love that I get to go in and say, okay, these are the areas that we've identified

that are difficult and like hear my ideas and hear the things that I think are gonna help you and make a big difference. And usually they're right and usually they are super successful and gain confidence and if they had lost their love for learning they gain that back a little bit and so that's the super rewarding part for me. And so that's the super rewarding part for me. And so that's the super rewarding part for me.

Michelle She Her (13:03.750)

Awesome. What are some of the more common pieces of technology or tools that are really useful for students? Even you had mentioned you're doing early intervention. So even if we think about kids in early intervention, preschool, elementary school, middle school, high school, what sorts of things at each grade level do you kind of see as being commonly beneficial?

Melissa (13:29.177)

Well, and I think, you know, in the past few years, more assistive technology has become more mainstream and adopted by people who use it to, you know, fit things in throughout their day, like audiobooks, I think have become a lot more common than they were even maybe five years ago. And so for students who have a really hard time reading, being able to listen to an is a way better way to get, you know, access to the content. But because it's become trendy for people to be able to, you know, fit it in while they're driving or at the grocery store while they're cleaning, it's become more accessible to students who really need that. So, you know, each feed the other, right? So I don't know if I can be succinct in kind of going through through every single thing, but I will say, you know, assistive tech is kind of divided between like low tech, high tech, and then like really specialized, right? So low tech can be something like picture symbols instead of words. And so anyone who has had a young child, you know, who can't read yet has, you know, drawn pictures of whatever it is that they wanted to write instead and then their child is able to understand that for the most part. So using things like visuals, that is a super common low tech thing that can be really beneficial to younger children, but also to people who are just visual learners or who may have reading difficulties. So it really is kind of situation dependent. Other more, oh, I'll also say, we also have like high incidents

tools and then lower incidence tools, right? So like text to speech and speech to text. So being able to have something that's on a screen read to you out loud by, you know, whatever.

assistant or program or extension, that's something that makes something that's inaccessible to a student suddenly accessible. But then there's also, you know, like, IV's technology where an individual can control the mouse of a computer with the movement of their eyes, which is much more specialized, much more high tech, but a lot more low incidence. You know, not as, it's not going to that people are using every day in their lives unless they can't physically move other parts of their body. So that kind of, it kind of runs the gamut, but a lot of the technology that are higher incidents would be like the speech to text, text to speech, even just being able to like have things on video or listen to things rather than reading things, being able to watch a math process back via video instead of reading through the steps and being able to watch a teacher go through it as many times as they need and being able to pause and rewind is something that can be super helpful to kids who maybe didn't get it the first time or being able to have a digital to-do list for students with executive function or a visual timer up on their computer screen

Okay, I either have five more minutes that I am able to work or oh, I need to make sure that I'm paying attention to this for the next two minutes And then I can take a break And you know kind of let off some steam so You know a lot of a lot of things for executive functioning are becoming more popular just because the productivity Buzzword right everyone wants to be more productive and put more things in but for people whohave difficulty with their executive functioning, a lot of those tools just make life a lot more easier, a lot more easy rather than, you know, trying to get the most out of that productivity and just kind of make getting through the day a lot easier. And so, I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

Dana Marie (18:04.185)

So you mentioned a little bit about parents, sort of like how you work with them to build, you know, not just the assessment and the evaluation, but then, you know, the plan for tools and strategies and so on and so forth. But I guess my question is, how do you see your role in the role of assistive technology specialists like on the team in general? So working with parents and caregivers, but also working with the school teams, because, you know, much like any specialists,

You'll go in, you'll do an evaluation, you'll do an assessment, and then come up with a plan. And then oftentimes you're moving on to assess the next kid, especially these days, evaluate the next kid, people are short staffed, schools, early intervention, everyone's looking for specialists. So how do you sort of work with the school team, including the parents and caregivers, to ensure that whatever plan is developed is actually put into place with fidelity you know, the course of period of time.

Melissa (19:07.137)

I will say, I don't know that I have the answer 100% for you yet. I don't know that I have a 100% success rate yet, but definitely have that goal and working towards that. And I think my mentor and the owner of the company that I worked for in Massachusetts and do some part-time work for her motto is, we want to work ourselves out of a job.

So we really see ourselves as someone who comes in and teaches the staff, hopefully as many staff as possible, how to work the technology, when to work the technology, how to troubleshoot it. And so we use an implementation plan that we try to develop with the team. So we'll say, okay the tech, when do we use it, how do we use it, and who is responsible for it. And so hopefully having that outline kind of covers all the bases. But a lot of times, you know, caregivers or parents will say, why aren't you working directly with my kid? And a lot of the time, much of the time we do work directly with the student, but more often we end up working with the teachers because they are the ones who are presenting

to the child and so they need to present it in a way that is accessible to them. And they need to be able to know how to help the student if they run into an issue. And so they need to know that what they're developing or presenting to the child is presented in a way that they can access it or work with it or respond to it. And then the other benefit of that is they then have this new way knowledge that they can implement with other students, whether or not they necessarily require it through their IEP or documentation or whatever, which then brings me to the other kind of hallmark of what we try to kind of promote is universal design. So making something that is inherently either accessible or able to be changed or modified easily so that it can be responded to or accessed in multiple ways. And I don't know if you guys have seen, there's like this older cartoon and it's of like a snowstorm and there's a person with a shovel and you know they're shoveling out the snow and a student in a wheelchair is there and they have this speech bubble like, hey, you shovel out the ramp, that would be nice. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, when I'm done with the stairs. But not realizing if he had shoveled out the ramp, all of the students used the ramp. So trying to kind of promote that shift in thinking of like, okay, how can we create something that, you know, is accessible to everybody. And then we can kind of change it in the way that we need to to suit whatever group we're working with or toward whatever skill we're trying to work on.

So those are sort of like the big hallmarks of what we try to promote within assistive technology. So hopefully you don't need the assistive technology because you're already able to access it or respond to it in a way that is, you know, works for you as a student.

Michelle She Her (22:58.050)

I was just going to say, I really think that the consult model for a lot of services and service providers and that sort of support is really undervalued, because I think it's really misunderstood in a way that by both educators and caregivers, thinking that, well, if you're only consulting, if you're not actually with my child one-on-one or in a small group, then how is that helping them?

Like you said that being able to consult with the person who is with the student the most, who can then implement that for that specific student with that student, but also take that knowledge that they learn and trickle it down to possibly more kids who could need it. I just, I think that the consult model is so valuable and undervalued.

Melissa (23:57.117)

I agree with you, but in a way I disagree, because I don't know that it's undervalued. I think that so many teachers have so many things that they need to do that are on their plate, that they have to accomplish every day, and every week, and every month, and every semester, that it's A, impossible, and B, overwhelming. And when I first started out, I'd come in all gung-ho like, hey, I'm here to do an assessment

Michelle She Her (23:59.854)

Okay.

Melissa (24:25.937)

and like you'd see the windows shutting, the wall, doors closing, like, oh my God, this person's coming in and they're gonna tell me all of the stuff that I need to do. And I already don't have enough time to do the things that I need to do and they're just gonna add more to my plate. And so, you know, like making sure that I come in in the right way and explain myself was a really important lesson for me because

That really made a big difference in how I was received and the information that I got from teachers. Because when I came in as like, hey, I'm here to do this for this student, but I'm also here to hopefully make your life easier because by giving the student these tools, you're gonna be able to know what they're learning, hopefully a lot more clearly. And it's hopefully gonna benefit other students as well. Maybe they don't technically need it, but maybe you're gonna see some kids who were kind of on the borderline and they really end up thriving with this technology. And a lot of things that now are digital, like Google Forms, in the beginning, that was a huge thing for me. I was like, I really, like, giving this to the student via a form is gonna make them able to show you what they know so much easier. But here are all these things that you can then do with a form and you don't even have to grade it. Like you're going to save yourself so much time and then once they knew how to do it they were like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Like I'm doing everything this way now. You know that or being able to make a copy of a doc or something, you know, rather than having to, you know, print it out and enlarge it, they could then give it to a student where they can make their own, you know, visual accommodations or whatever. But then every student can do that as well. in a way that is easy, it's easier for them and you're saving time at the copier, which we know is like the worst, right, trying to get the copier. And it never works the right way the first time. And then like, it's possible to enlarge something, like it's just a whole other issue. And so that, and then it's also environmentally friendly and you're saving resources for your district. Like, there's all sorts of other pros that come along with it. And so being able to kind of translate

Michelle She Her (26:34.850)

brutal.

Dana Marie (26:35.925)

terrible.

Dana Marie (26:40.505)

Sure doesn't.

Melissa (26:55.897)

for a teacher as well rather than coming in and being like hey I'm gonna tell you exactly what you need to do and this is gonna you know make your life so much worse I'm gonna tell you what this student needs but I'm also gonna hopefully help you see how this is gonna benefit you in the long run and hopefully benefit other students that then come your way

Michelle She Her (27:18.090)

Yeah, a previous guest had said that the most successful plan is going to be the most doable plan and the most, you know, the most doable plan might not be like what would ultimately be the most effective, but it's actually the most effective because it's going to be able to be implemented confidently and and comfortably and consistently, right? So, yeah.

Dana Marie (27:20.605)

Let's go!

Melissa (27:40.717)

Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, like, that's the case in everything, right? Like when on January 1st, when you're like, I'm not eating any sugar and I'm not, you know, and then a week later, you're like, I can't do this. This isn't sustained. So it's sustainable. But like, when you're like, okay, I'm going to add in one fruit a day, that's a lot easier, you know, and, you know, sustainable, like, okay, I can add one fruit in, you know, I kind of try to equate it to something like that, or like, you're not going to run up, go out and first time you strap on some, you know, running shoes, you're gonna, you know, maybe walk and run a little bit and then work up to it. And so that's another important thing, I think, with both educational teams and particularly parents and caregivers to know like it's not an overnight, you know, turn on the light switch and everything is amazing. It is work. You do have, there is a learning curve, you know, the student has to learn it, teachers have to learn it, implementing it, sometimes take some time, and sometimes the student is resistant as well. And so that's a piece of it. Like, you know, I have to be making sure I have student buy-in and helping them understand why it's going to be beneficial to them, particularly if it's something like where they're like, oh, well, my friends aren't using this. Why do I need to use this? Or, you know, if it's something that, you know, they may feel a little bit self-conscious about. You know, you kind of have to...that and take small steps to that. And especially if it's a student who's been struggling for a while and they're not meeting their goals, there's a lot of pressure for them to make progress. And so it can be really frustrating when you don't see that right away. And so understanding it is a process and it does take time. And unfortunately, you really can't see it until you've gone,

bit further down the road and then you're able to look back and say oh look at where we were three months ago, look at where we were a semester ago, you know, or look at where we were last year at this time, but you know I can pretty much guarantee that any student I've worked with, you know, we've made progress. It just, it takes time. It just, it's not an overnight thing usually. And so being consistent, like you said Michelle, I think that's a huge piece of it.

And being really mindful about when you use it, especially in the beginning, is really, really important. And other times, I've also had teams, you know, say, well, we tried to use it in this thing, but it just didn't work. And so having the objective of the lesson in mind is really important too, right? Like, if it's a spelling test, we might not want them to use it.

speech to text. That's not what we're testing right? I mean spelling tests and and other stuff whatever but like you know that's maybe a bad example but like are we you know testing their knowledge of you know World War II or are we testing their ability to type a five paragraph essay and so if it's their knowledge you know however they get it out on the page or

as an assignment, like, you know, if they are a student who uses speech to text, that should be fine. But if it is part of like, okay, I need to see their handwriting, we can't have them use that. And that's, again, those, these are those nuance kind of conversations that the team has to have, right? And in that implementation plan, when do we use this? Why do we use it? And, you know, that and can the student access whatever it is or do they need an alternative?

Dana Marie (31:48.465)

I think you brought up a really good point earlier and wait, as usual, don't have time to dive into it now because time flies and maybe it's a conversation for another episode, but you brought up a point about universal design for learning and how you had a previous boss who said that the goal was to actually put yourself out of a job. I think that's a really good point here because part of having a specialist like you on the team who is so knowledgeable about what's going on.assistive technology and the tools and strategies that can help students with disabilities is being able to support like you said not just the parents and the caregivers but the school team, the educators, the teachers, the special educators who are actually working with the students five, six, seven, eight hours sometimes a day because as everyone here knows this is no secret it's often really challenging for educators to get really quality professional development have time in their day to really dive into some things that they don't know a lot about and to do research on tools and strategies and assistive tech that might be beneficial for all of their students or some of their students or at least one of their students. There's limited time and there's limited resources, right? So having somebody like you who knows the tools and strategies come to the school team, be able to not just teach them about them but show them how to implement them, all of the questions that you were just kind of giving us as an example of. do we do it and why and how and for what purpose and what objective and what content area and so on and so forth? I think just to Michelle's point is just valuable and overall a really valuable use of everyone's time when time is of the essence obviously and when like I said resources are scarce as well.

Melissa (33:40.357)

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean I sort of liken it to not not the medical model But you know you go to your general practitioner for your checkup every year, right? And then you know you might have a specialist like a dermatologist or whatever and then like maybe you have an issue where you need surgery so like you don't go to the same person for each one of those and so I think being able to shift the mindset of educators as well like General like an elementary educator the amount have to know and be able to implement throughout the day and the decisions that they have to make. It's insane. Like, I did it for a couple years as a special editor and like, I just don't know and even, you know, more so now with all of the things and all of the technology and all of the testing, like, there's just so many things. There's not enough time in the day. There's not, there's never enough resources. And so, yeah, I think, you know, being able to come in and really be effective is super rewarding to me and being able to know like, okay, I know at least one person in this school or in this grade knows this information. And so being able to show them like, hey, if this is what you're seeing, try this out or like make sure you're looking at the environment and the task. And then, you know, and, you know, being able to say like, here are the resources, like, this is the stuff that you learn from this student.so like, you know, you can extrapolate from that. Like, it's not that teachers don't aren't smart enough, it's just that they have other knowledge and they don't have the time to learn all of this other specialized knowledge. So being able to come in and give that to them is super rewarding to me and then they can carry that on and share it with, you know, their co-workers and their colleagues and hopefully, you know, kind of through word of mouth and like, hey, did you try this out? Like a lot, a lot, you know, all those hallway conversations, like, hey guys, this is what I tried with this kid today. Like, it was really successful. Try it with, you know, you're, you know, who has this challenge or whatever. Or even just try this with the whole class. They were really into it. Like they were really motivated by it. And it was online and digital, so I got to save time grading or whatever. And I mean, so much of what we're doing now is I feel like very different from, you know, when I was back in the day, was in school. I had a parent who, you know, rightfully was very concerned about like their child's handwriting. And they were like, well, what about when they have to apply for jobs? And I said, well, we don't apply for jobs on paper anymore. Like it's all digital. Like I want to make sure that they can fill out. Absolutely. But like as important as handwriting is, like I want to make sure that they have all of these other skills as well. And so come in as the person with authority and say like, yes, those are important, but these are also priorities. And these are the things that are going to get your kid there is really rewarding to me and to be able to kind of, you know, help the parents and caregivers understand what the teachers are saying and the teachers understand what the parents and caregivers are saying. So it's almost

But yeah, it's really fun, it's really interesting. I love seeing kids kind of do different tasks in the way that they do them and the things that I can learn from them and then seeing them try the technology and be successful with it is amazing. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here.

Dana Marie (37:30.305)

Amazing. Well, I've learned something today. I already can't wait to go back and listen, especially at the beginning when you gave us the definitions, the long definition and the short definition. I'm already thinking about going back and listening to those. When we end, we like to put folks on the spot to end an episode and kind of give us too long dinner read version, a little sound bite, kind of if you were to wrap everything up for us,

Dana Marie (38:01.128)

I guess my question today is, what do you wish people knew about assistive technology?

Melissa (38:06.577)

Assistive technology hopefully makes things easier and accessible for not just students with disabilities but also their educational team and parents and caregivers. That is the goal and what I would consider to be a successful effort.

Michelle She Her (38:30.550)

I love that. I love that. Awesome.

Melissa (38:35.625)

Thank you guys so much for having me. This was fabulous. Thank you.

Dana Marie (38:38.105)

Thank you. Bye.

Michelle She Her (38:38.710)

Oh, thank you so much. It's so much valuable nuggets in here for folks listening. So thank you so much for joining us here. And hopefully, you know, if folks who are listening have questions, we could always, I'm sure, ask Melissa to be back on with us again to answer questions. So send them our way at empoweredtoadvocateatgmail.com and we'll compile those. We'll be back in a minute.

Dana Marie (39:04.745)

We appreciate you. Thank you so much for being here. Everybody else, we will talk to you next time. Bye bye.