Dana Marie (00:01.03)

Hi, everybody. Welcome back. We're fixing our hair in case you're wondering why we're laughing to start. Welcome back to the Empowered to Advocate podcast. This is Dana Marie, and I am joined with Michelle. And actually, this is a good point. If you're somebody who just listens to us, just listens to us on Apple or on Spotify or on sort of whatever podcast streaming service you use, you might not know that we also post all of our episodes.

on YouTube. And so for some folks that's more accessible, we add captions to our YouTube videos as well. So if you're someone who would like to see us fixing our hair, you can actually catch us on YouTube or we have the full episode of each podcast, like I said, with captions and you can watch our conversation in addition to listening. So a little, a little plug for our

Michelle she/her (00:31.639)

Mm.

Michelle she/her (00:55.306)

Yeah.

Michelle she/her (00:59.85)

You can see me talking with my hands all the time.

Dana Marie (01:00.014)

I didn't, I actually, I was thinking about that today because we are, we're technically recording this on a snow day. And so if we were just, no snow day, there's no snow, but it's technically a snow day. And if we were just recording a podcast for folks to listen to and not also posting on YouTube.

Michelle she/her (01:10.466)

Hmm a snow a no snow day

Dana Marie (01:25.422)

I could have stayed with my hair and outfit as they were earlier, but I then reminded myself that some people do watch us instead of just listen to us. So here we are. Right back at you. So we actually, we're going to just dive right in today to a conversation that unfortunately it feels like we're now having on repeat with.

Michelle she/her (01:35.019)

Yeah. Well, you look great. You look great.

Michelle she/her (01:50.598)

Mmm, it's like Groundhog Day.

Dana Marie (01:51.062)

with parents, with caregivers, it feels like a Groundhog Day. And if we're having the conversation on repeat, it occurred to us that maybe you all are experiencing something similar or have experienced something similar in the past. So today we want to talk about goals. We want to talk about IEP goals and sort of what makes a good goal. Some of the things that we often see when we're reviewing IEPs, when they come to goals and kind of

Michelle she/her (02:10.318)

Hmm.

Dana Marie (02:21.35)

What can be done differently? What can be done next? Um, because this, like I said, unfortunately has been coming up quite a lot this, this school year in particular, as we review IEPs with parents.

Michelle she/her (02:23.03)

Yeah.

Michelle she/her (02:33.514)

Yeah. So I think when we think about like the parts of an IEP, right, we have accommodations, we have modifications, we have services, we have placement. But when we're thinking about like how we actually are going to know if those things are working for a student, and by working, we mean making progress, we need to have some sort of marker for that, that that's measurable, that's

something that's going to be a challenge for the student, right? And that's goals. Those are goal areas. And in life, we can be setting goals for ourselves in any number of situations. In the world of education, we have goals, because we think about the IEP as supporting a student with a disability to access the grade level content. So these goals should be helping a child, a student, a young learner, a young person.

bridging from where their current performance level is in relation to a grade level standard to get to that grade level standard.

Dana Marie (03:41.235)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle she/her (03:42.25)

So, and I'm talking with my hands if you're not watching. Because I almost feel like goals are like, whether it's because educators and service providers are strapped for time or they're so busy, but the quality of goals that I am seeing are just, they're really bad. They're really bad. They're an afterthought. And,

Dana Marie (03:46.214)

I think.

Michelle she/her (04:11.814)

In reality, the goals should be driving the services, which then should be driving what kind of placement a student needs. I keep hearing school districts and educators just saying a student needs a more restrictive placement or a less restrictive placement. It's like, well, where's the data? If there's no well-written goal, what are we taking data on?

Dana Marie (04:29.657)

No.

Dana Marie (04:33.443)

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marie (04:38.866)

Yeah, I am so glad you mentioned that idea of an afterthought, because I actually just had a similar conversation with one of the parents that we work with. And what I noticed, which is so interesting, is a lot of the rest of this particular IEP was really strong, was really thoughtful. The accommodations were really thoughtful. They were really individualized to that particular student. There were just some really great parts.

to the IEP that were tailored to this learner, their goals for the future, so on and so forth. And then we got to the goals. And let me actually just stop there and give you some like tangible, if you're listening, some tangible examples of what this could look like. Cause you might, we often get parents come to us and say, I don't even know what I'm looking for in the goals, right? Like, how do I even know if it's a good goal, right? So let's give you some tangible examples of some of the things that we see that.

Michelle she/her (05:28.703)

Yeah, yeah.

Dana Marie (05:36.734)

could be changed, could be remedied. So a big, yeah, let's.

Michelle she/her (05:39.426)

Well, I guess like start with like what, how, what are the parts of a goal? And like, what, how do we write? Like maybe we start here with how to craft a good goal. Like, right? Like, because then it's easier to identify the ones that maybe are not.

Dana Marie (05:45.918)

That's a good point.

Dana Marie (05:51.311)

Yeah.

Dana Marie (05:57.638)

Well, let's start with the part that we always like, oh my goodness, what is going on here, which is the current performance. So when you're writing a goal, in the IEP, there's a place to write where the student currently is, what their current performance is in relation to this goal area. So if it's a reading goal, what is their current performance in relation to reading? Where are they? What does the data tell us? What is the most recent?

Michelle she/her (06:03.629)

Mm.

Dana Marie (06:26.778)

assessments and evaluations tell us about where they currently are in relation to this area. From there, we take that current performance and we craft the goal. Okay, we know where we're at, we know where we're starting, what's our goal, where do we want to go? And a goal is typically written for a calendar year. So not necessarily a school year, but a calendar year. So if you

Michelle she/her (06:45.088)

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marie (06:57.026)

In reality, that goal could take you to February of the next school year, right? So it could span two grade levels, it could span two school years. So start where you're at. Start with the current performance, craft a goal based on where the vision is for the student to go. What's the goal for them in a calendar year to be able to do? Once you do that, and this is often where things fall apart, what are the objectives

What are the steps? What are the objectives? What are the pieces that would help to get us to that goal? That would help this student to reach that goal, right? You cannot say that you're, you could, I suppose, but we can't say the current performance is that this child has all of their letter sounds.

and then the goal is that they will be reading at a third grade level by next year.

Michelle she/her (08:00.762)

Because it has to be challenging, but achievable.

Dana Marie (08:06.17)

and make a connection between where they're currently at. So start with the current performance, craft the goal, but then craft the objectives to help that child, to help that student reach that goal. And those sort of like the three main parts. And if done well, I think this is the big piece, and Michelle already mentioned this, but it's worth mentioning again. If done well, it then becomes so much easier

Michelle she/her (08:07.735)

Yeah.

Dana Marie (08:36.242)

whether or not that child is making progress. You can look at what we set out for the goal for them for the year. We can look at what the objectives were that we wanted them to reach over the course of that calendar year. And we can measure where they are in relation to meeting those objectives in theory. Right?

Michelle she/her (08:54.243)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, if we have goals that are measurable, that we can then easily take data on, we then know if the student is making progress towards those goals. We can then make informed decisions about if we need to make adaptations to the students programming through services and perhaps potentially placement, either moving more restrictive or less restrictive.

Dana Marie (09:15.376)

Hmm.

Michelle she/her (09:26.882)

based on that progress and how we know a student is progressing is based on data. This is also how we can decide, make an informed decision if a student qualifies for extended school year services. We can't determine if a student has substantial regression or is at risk for substantial regression over extended vacation periods if we don't have any data to base that on.

Dana Marie (09:52.014)

And it's really, honestly, like as a former classroom teacher, it's actually really hard to take data and manage data when the goals aren't written well. It's really, it's hard because it feels like it does. It feels like throwing spaghetti at the wall. Honestly, it feels like grasping at straws. Like, what am I looking for? Where am I looking for the student to be? How do I even track their progress? I think...

Michelle she/her (10:02.102)

Yeah, it's so hard. Sucks.

Dana Marie (10:21.138)

One thing is that by writing a good goal, it actually for educators, if they're an educator listening, it actually would make it easier to track, to track.

Michelle she/her (10:29.485)

Right?

And it makes it easier to design lessons to target those goal areas, right? Why are we going to do a phonics lesson if a student is decoding on grade level and where their area of need is comprehension?

Dana Marie (10:39.474)

100%

Dana Marie (10:51.13)

Right.

Michelle she/her (10:52.406)

But I see this all the time is when I ask folks, what's the specialized instruction? What is the lessons that are taking place? And then nobody, they're just like, well, this is the boxed curriculum that we use for students who have a reading goal. Or this is the, yeah. Or we see this in RTI. Oh, well, they get a literacy assistant. They get a math assistant. They get, you know.

Dana Marie (11:11.73)

Move.

Dana Marie (11:15.518)

Thanks for watching!

Michelle she/her (11:20.95)

But I'm like, so you're working on calculations, but the student can actually has pretty good math fluency. Why are we working on calculations with them when we could be working on word problems or whatever, right? So a lot of times we're also not seeing the specialized instruction actually targeting the areas of need for students. And it's easier for us to figure that out if the goals are well written.

Dana Marie (11:48.926)

Can you tell her if I hit up about this? I'm listening, I'm listening to our conversation. We're not typically this way. Honestly, I think we're feeling frustrated. Parents are feeling frustrated. Educators are feeling frustrated, quite frankly. Everyone's feeling frustrated because, and I think we said this at the beginning and it's important to bring it up again, it often feels like goals are an afterthought.

Michelle she/her (11:51.182)

Um, I bet everybody can.

Dana Marie (12:17.71)

It feels like we spend a lot of time in IEP meetings on all sides of the table, talking about services, talking about accommodations. That's great. These are great things to discuss at IEP meetings. It sometimes feels like we spend less time talking about what areas we're targeting for goals. You know, I recently, I will, I'll give this one example. I recently attended an IEP meeting to support a parent, a caregiver that we work with.

Michelle she/her (12:17.89)

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marie (12:47.922)

And I couldn't honestly put my finger on something about the meeting. It didn't feel like we really got to the heart of what we were what we were trying to do for this kiddo. It's a kid who's making great progress, so we're looking towards the future, looking to make things more challenging for them, really to push them a little bit. But I left kind of feeling like, I'm not really sure.

Michelle she/her (12:58.21)

Mmm.

Dana Marie (13:13.798)

like what the vision is here, where we're going, so on and so forth. So then, you know, you wait for a little while for the team to send the proposed IEP. And then when looking at the proposed IEP, Michelle and I were talking about the goals and it kind of illustrated sort of that lackluster feeling I had when I'm leaving the meeting and realizing that the goals weren't really targeting

what this particular student's vision is for their future. They weren't really targeting the link between their current performance and where they should be headed or where they're going. And then when we start to dig down a little bit deeper and remind ourselves of the IEP from last year and the meeting from last year, we realized that actually none of the goals had been changed between the two years.

Michelle she/her (13:46.454)

Mmm, mhm.

Dana Marie (14:11.87)

And so that's why they didn't feel like progression, because they were, they, there was no progression. The school team, and any number of different reasons, like Michelle said, could have been inadvertently. Honestly, it could have been that, you know, time was, you know, time was of a crunch. It could be any, any number of reasons, and that part's not really important. But looking at

that I was like, oh, this is why it felt like this, because we didn't really talk about what the goals for this child are. So of course, we're wanting to go back to the table with the parent caregiver and the school team to talk about these goals, updating them, making them, like Michelle said, measurable, but also making them realistic and applicable for this particular student as they move.

you know, as they transition, you know, it's halfway through the year, this IEP is gonna take them into their next grade level. So it's really important to get it right now and make sure we're setting some really good goals that we can measure progress for the student.

Michelle she/her (15:18.73)

Yeah. Yeah, so the biggest things as a parent, as a caregiver, or if you're an educator and you're listening to this, things that you want to be looking for when you are reading a goal or writing a goal is that current performance level. And this should actually be a statement about what the student can do. Oftentimes, the we, and this can kind of go back into.

thinking about like a strength focused IEP that we've talked about on here before versus a deficit focused IEP. But the current performance level really should be what the student can do. Every student can do things. Okay, like there is no reason for us to not have things that the student can do. And if this is the students,

Dana Marie (15:49.764)

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marie (16:07.314)

lots of things.

Michelle she/her (16:16.402)

second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh IEP in their school career, then we should have current data from before to drive what they can currently do. So we have that current performance level, and then the goal and objectives should be measurable. They should be challenging, but achievable.

Dana Marie (16:25.074)

years.

Michelle she/her (16:42.794)

and they should have like a time constraint on them. Like in the first quarter, Suzy will increase her oral reading fluency by 10 words. Or it might be in the time of this in the life of the IEP or by the end of the IEP, Suzy will increase her oral reading fluency by 10 words. Big difference there.

Dana Marie (17:07.409)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle she/her (17:07.414)

That's either 40 words over the course of the year or 10 words over the course of the year. And different students, they're achievable, but challenging is gonna be different, which is also the other big piece here. It should feel when you read this goal that it is individualized to your child and to what your parent concern statement is, to what your vision is, to what your child's concerns are, depending on

Dana Marie (17:10.046)

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marie (17:16.967)

100%.

Michelle she/her (17:36.406)

developmentally, what they've participated in their meeting and writing of their IP, and what your child's vision is, no matter how old they are.

Dana Marie (17:38.517)

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marie (17:41.694)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle she/her (17:45.622)

And it should also make sense. It should make sense in relation to the grade level curriculum, which as caregivers, this is where it can be hard to figure out, like, is this like reasonable? But educators, you know what your grade level standards are. You know what students, what level, what they should be able to do at this grade level. And you should know based on baseline data that you have collected.

Dana Marie (17:57.79)

Sure.

Michelle she/her (18:14.634)

know what your students can currently do, and then what the next reasonable step would be. Because this is the other piece, and then I'll turn it over to you, Dana-Marie. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, not sorry. The other piece of this is these goals should make that logical sense, like the next level on the step, right? It shouldn't be, like Dana-Marie said earlier,

Dana Marie (18:25.054)

We're fired up, we already sold you.

Michelle she/her (18:44.726)

Jose can add single digit numbers with 75% accuracy. And then the next year, like that's, Jose's can do, add single digit numbers with 75% accuracy. And then the next, and then there's gonna be objective. Jose will multiply and divide five digit by five digit numbers using the standard algorithm. That's just like, we skipped a whole lot of things in between.

Dana Marie (19:14.737)

Yeah.

Michelle she/her (19:15.146)

Maybe that's what we want them to be doing at that grade level, but if they're currently adding single digit numbers, it's probably not a reasonable achievable goal for them at this point in the life of the one year of an IEP.

Dana Marie (19:24.382)

sleep. Yeah.

Dana Marie (19:31.942)

For sure, and now that you're saying that, I'm thinking we are at some point in the future going to need a part two to this conversation because the one thing that we haven't quite talked about, but it is a longer conversation, is looking at a goal and asking who cares. Who cares, right?

Michelle she/her (19:38.962)

I think so.

Michelle she/her (19:51.614)

Mmm, mm-hmm.

Dana Marie (19:52.598)

making sure that when we're writing goals, we're not just writing goals to write goals. I'm going to give you kind of a silly example to end, but I think it's important for the follow-up conversation we have about this. For writing a goal for a student, that is, the student will be able to staple 10 pieces of paper together using a stapler by the end of the

Dana Marie (20:22.742)

for some reason, maybe it was wrist and arm strength, maybe it was a fine motor goal, maybe it was an organization, who knows, right?

If the next year the goal is for that student to staple 20 pieces of paper together instead of 10, that's when you have to start, and this is an extreme example, but that's when you have to start thinking, why? Why? Why is this important for this student? Why is this important for their future? Why is this important for them to reach grade level content and curriculum? Why is this important for them to acquire?

Michelle she/her (20:48.939)

Yeah.

Dana Marie (21:02.054)

daily living skills or their other daily living skills that are more significant and important for them to work towards and acquire. There's just so many so what questions that can be asked. And I think sometimes, and like I said, this is a larger conversation for another day, but sometimes we look at goals and we're like, why? But why? Why, what does this lead this student to be able?

Michelle she/her (21:11.564)

Mmm.

Michelle she/her (21:23.711)

Yeah, bye.

Dana Marie (21:31.198)

to do in the future, why is this a skill they need to even acquire? So I think that, well, we're already over time that we want it to be. But I think that we'll put a pin in that for our next conversation, because I think it's really important to talk about not just setting goals to set goals either, and not just for students to be able to reach them, but really taking a look at that individual and knowing what's important for them, not just for now.

Michelle she/her (21:32.993)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle she/her (21:40.078)

Ha ha ha!

Michelle she/her (21:49.954)

Hmm

Dana Marie (22:00.498)

but for their future, whether it's for the next grade level, whether if it's for their secondary success, whether it's for their post-secondary success, their independent living, so on and so forth, looking at those goals and just really being thoughtful about the so what, the why are we even proposing that we do this for this child?

Michelle she/her (22:06.124)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle she/her (22:18.286)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle she/her (22:22.782)

Yeah. So again, in summary, when you're looking at these goals, you want to make sure that current performance level has current data for what the student can do. The goals and objectives should be measurable. They should be purposeful and they should be in relation to the student's disability. And grade level content and where the vision for that student is.

Dana Marie (22:24.382)

course.

Dana Marie (22:50.376)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle she/her (22:50.706)

So everything should fall in line and should be aligned in the goals and then also throughout the IEP. So.

Dana Marie (23:00.198)

We hope that you've seen good goals this year. We hope that your child's team has written good goals, but if you do have questions, reach out to us. This is obviously a conversation that we need to go deeper into and we certainly need to talk more about, but drop us your questions about goals, drop us your comments, let us know. Like I said, if you've seen good ones or if there are certain things that you see keep popping up, we'd love to hear from you.

Michelle she/her (23:03.106)

Hahaha.

Dana Marie (23:28.706)

especially as we continue this conversation.

Michelle she/her (23:30.734)

Yeah. Awesome. All right. Till next time, everybody. Take care.

Dana Marie (23:36.05)

Have a good one.